Another Anti-Mormon Who Just Doesn't Get It

[_wenglund]

If you think you have found a way to explain this otherwise, feel free to do so.

Okay, let's look at issues of "unreliable revelation" and see if they may detract us (perhaps to the point of loss of faith) from the real intent of the gospel--i.e. developing spiritually to become like Christ and growing towards a fulness of joy and love one with another.

To start with, will you please give me one specific example, presumably vital to one's faith, of "unreliable revelation"?

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

[_beastie]

Okay, let's look at issues of "unreliable revelation" and see if they may detract us (perhaps to the point of loss of faith) from the real intent of the gospel--i.e. developing spiritually to become like Christ and growing towards a fulness of joy and love one with another.

To start with, will you please give me one specific example, presumably vital to one's faith, of "unreliable revelation"?

I already provided a very specific example - the fact that God did not answer YES when I asked if the LDS church was true.

I assume the truthfulness of the LDS church is vital to one's faith in the gospel as portrayed by the LDS church.

[_wenglund]

Right. Which was sort of my point earlier with the WoW.

I'm still not quite clear how the WoW fits into Wades religious worldview. It seems to me, and correct if I'm wrong Wade, that he believes the WoW in itself is not the important thing, but that we have an attitude of willingness to obey any and all commandments God issues. The WoW is just another commandment which we should follow because we have already given ourselves to God. Those of us that nit pick the individual commandments are missing the larger picture that we should just obey. Am I close, Wade?

Not really. In your description above, obedience to commandments is the primary objective; whereas with me, the primary objective is to become like Christ, with obedience to the commandments being one of the means to achieving the objective. Nit picking the commandments tends to mis the point for why the commandments exist, and may distract us from achieving the primary objective.

Accordingly, in terms of the WoW, determining if it is a divine commandment or divine wisdom or just good advice really doesn't matter, and may distract us from what does matter, and that is determining if the living the WoW will increase our ability to become like Christ.

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

[_wenglund]

I already provided a very specific example - the fact that God did not answer YES when I asked if the LDS church was true.

This is great. However, could you please provide a little context for this specific example. In particular, could you describe the condition of your faith (what it is you may or may not have believed about the gospel) at the time of asking the question above, and what prompted you to ask?

The reason I ask is, we are talking about distractions that may cause a loss of faith. If, at the time of your asking the above question, you had no faith, then your example doesn't apply.

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

[_karl61]

Okay, let's look at issues of "unreliable revelation" and see if they may detract us (perhaps to the point of loss of faith) from the real intent of the gospel--i.e. developing spiritually to become like Christ and growing towards a fulness of joy and love one with another.

To start with, will you please give me one specific example, presumably vital to one's faith, of "unreliable revelation"?

I already provided a very specific example - the fact that God did not answer YES when I asked if the LDS church was true.

I assume the truthfulness of the LDS church is vital to one's faith in the gospel as portrayed by the LDS church.

Beastie ask God about Bill's church:

http://churchofbill.blogspot.com/

[_beastie]

This is great. However, could you please provide a little context for this specific example. In particular, could you describe the condition of your faith (what it is you may or may not have believed about the gospel) at the time of asking the question above, and what prompted you to ask?

The reason I ask is, we are talking about distractions that may cause a loss of faith. If, at the time of your asking the above question, you had no faith, then your example doesn't apply.

No, I had not yet lost faith. I was still active in church, and still believed that the church was true. Yes, I was troubled by things I was reading about church history, but I still felt these issues could be resolved if the church was true. I had joined the church based on my testimony of the Book of Mormon, but the truthfulness of the Book of Mormon and the truthfulness of the church as the "one true church" are two different things, as any member of an off-shoot LDS sect will affirm. I decided I needed a witness that the church was, as it claimed, the "one true church" in order to help me figure out how to resolve the issues.

Adding on - this was actually the second period in my life in which I asked God if the LDS church is the "one true church". The first time was as a nineteen year old investigator. The missionaries had taught me to ask God if the Book of Mormon was "true", and if the LDS church is the one true church. I asked about the Book of Mormon the first night, and received a strong positive answer. So I was filled with faith and confidence that I would receive an equally strong answer the next night when I prayed about the truthfulness of the LDS church. Instead, I was met with dark silence... just like I would face again 14 years later.

I went ahead and joined the church because my sister and the missionaries convinced me that if the Book of Mormon were true, then the church had to be true. Deep down, I knew this was logically fallacious, but, by that time, I really wanted the church to be true, so was easily convinced. Years later, after reading several books about early church history, I decided that I really needed God to answer that question. I had spent the intervening 14 years as a faithful member of the church. Certainly I had given God good evidence of my sincerity.

Still no answer.

Beastie ask God about Bill's church:

[_Doctor CamNC4Me]

It is of some comfort to be thought odd by the bizarre. It is kind of like being thought upside-down by the upside-down.

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

Hello Sir,

How does someone think someone upside-down [sic]? What a curious thing to say.

Very Respectfully,

Doctor CamNC4Me

[_wenglund]

Hi Beastie,

I appreciate you clarifying things for me.

In brief, it appears that you began to struggle with your faith because of things you read about church history. In other words, your mind was distracted from the intents and purposes of the gospel (i.e. becoming like Christ) by nit-picking historical minutia that isn't relevant to the intents and purposes of the gospel. And, as such, you began to lose faith.

Whether you agree entirely with this assessment or not, do you see what I mean by causal effect I mentioned earlier?

Evidently, this crises of faith caused you further distraction by, instead of rightly being moved to pray for how you may better become like Christ, you asked God for a testimony of that of which you already had a testimony for a number of years. You wanted God to tell you if the Church was true when you had already long believed that it was.

And, when you didn't get an answer after years of having the answer, and losing site of the answer because of being distracted from the intents of the Church, you lost faith altogether. Again, do you see the causal effect I mentioned?

Had you kept your eye single to becoming like Christ and growing to a fulness of joy and love, your faith in the verity of the restored gospel would have increased rather than being lost. You would not have needed to pray if the Church were true since the verity of the gospel would have continued to be born out by your increasely becoming like Christ.

Now, I can respect that you may see it differently. However, even if you don't agree, I hope you can respect that I have reasonably made my point. But, even if not, I appreciate you taking the time to thoughtfully consider my opposing posiiton.

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

[_beastie]

Evidently, this crises of faith caused you further distraction by, instead of rightly being moved to pray for how you may better become like Christ, you asked God for a testimony of that of which you already had a testimony for a number of years. You wanted God to tell you if the Church was true when you had already long believed that it was.

Two quick points for now:

1) I prayed to know if the church was true as a nineteen year old investigator, many years prior to reading things that troubled me about church history. I did not receive an answer at that time, either.

2) Believing, or hoping, the church is true is different from having a testimony that it is true. It is a foundational part of LDS theology that one has the right ask God if the church is true, and if done sincerely, God will answer your prayer. I needed to "know" the church was true through a testimonial witness in order to figure out how to resolve those other issues. Knowing the church is true isn't a taking your eye off the most important part of the LDS gospel - it is the foundation of the LDS gospel.

You would not have needed to pray if the Church were true since the verity of the gospel would have continued to be born out by your increasely becoming like Christ.

So the church is true if its members become Christ-like? Are you sure that is the stand you want to take?

[_wenglund]

Two quick points for now:

1) I prayed to know if the church was true as a nineteen year old investigator, many years prior to reading things that troubled me about church history. I did not receive an answer at that time, either.

Yet, as you said, you came to believe that the Church was true. In other words, you actually did get your answer, otherwise you would have had no basis for your belief.

2) Believing, or hoping, the church is true is different from having a testimony that it is true.

I agree that hoping the church is true is different from having a testimony that is true. But, as I understand things, one's testimony is the belief that the Church is true.

To clarify, then, were you, throughout your time in the Church, merely hoping the Church was true, but didn't really have a belief or have a testimony that it was true? If so, then as previously mentioned, your specific example doesn't apply.

It is a foundational part of LDS theology that one has the right to ask God if the church is true, and if done sincerely, God will answer your prayer. I needed to "know" the church was true through a testimonial witness in order to figure out how to resolve those other issues. Knowing the church is true isn't a taking your eye off the most important part of the LDS gospel - it is the foundation of the LDS gospel.

That's just it, Beastie, keeping your eye on becoming like Christ resolves those historical issues by rendering them irrelevant, and it also increasing answers (via Alma 32) the sincere prayer to know if the Church is true. This is how the process of growth in faith works. You lost faith by being distracted away from the growth in faith process through the allure of historical irrelevancies, and then misthinking thought to pray for that which you had already long been given (assuming that you believed the Church was true, and didn't just hope that it was true--otherwise, your specific example doesn't apply).

So the church is true if its members become Christ-like? Are you sure that is the stand you want to take?

Quite sure.

Thanks, -Wade Englund-