Young Earth Frustration

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_Nightlion
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Re: Young Earth Frustration

Post by _Nightlion »

Hoops wrote:What a literal reading of Genesis doesn't necessarily dispute this. As I mentioned before, on day 4 God created a fully functioning universe. Scientists, it seems, have been able to discover what a lot of that means.


You must excuse me if I come off the least bit brash. However, God did NOT create the universe in the original 6 days of creation. All half-read Mormons know that the account given to Moses was ONLY concerning the earth upon which we stand. Our solar system perhaps was brought together from the matter that was taken to complete it.

The light from all the universe has been filling the ends thereof for many trillions of years. Science only THINK they have a big bang that began all things. There readings could be extrapolated many different way once they are made aware of new information like a super nova somewhere out there not too far away. Is the universe expanding or is our solar system trucking closer and the illusion of expansion is being experiences. I doubt they know so much.

Moses 1:
35 But only an account of this earth, and the inhabitants thereof, give I unto you. For behold, there are many worlds that have passed away by the word of my power. And there are many that now stand, and innumerable are they unto man; but all things are numbered unto me, for they are mine and I know them.
36 And it came to pass that Moses spake unto the Lord, saying: Be merciful unto thy servant, O God, and tell me concerning this earth, and the inhabitants thereof, and also the heavens, and then thy servant will be content.
37 And the Lord God spake unto Moses, saying: The heavens, they are many, and they cannot be numbered unto man; but they are numbered unto me, for they are mine.
38 And as one earth shall pass away, and the heavens thereof even so shall another come; and there is no end to my works, neither to my words.
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_Nightlion
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Re: Young Earth Frustration

Post by _Nightlion »

just me wrote:
Nightlion wrote:Allow me, if you please.


No problem, friend.
***
Interesting and such a unique perspective. Thanks for sharing. :)


Picking myself up off da floor. Thank you.
The Apocalrock Manifesto and Wonders of Eternity: New Mormon Theology
https://www.docdroid.net/KDt8RNP/the-apocalrock-manifesto.pdf
https://www.docdroid.net/IEJ3KJh/wonders-of-eternity-2009.pdf
My YouTube videos:HERE
_Hoops
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Re: Young Earth Frustration

Post by _Hoops »

Basically they can't. However, there is always a clever (or not so clever) ad hoc way of getting around any given problem for YEC. For example, they could claim that stars are not really that far away at all or that the speed of light is not contant or that it isn't what we think it is. But modern science is an edifice of mutually supportive continually tested ideas and such ad hoc measures just create more problems than they solve--many many more.
No, they wouldn't.

I thought I gave a YEC answer. You asked about the stars. I wrote that the light in space was created on the fourth day. You'll remember that light had already been created, but this light done on the fourth day seems to be of a different kind, or had a different function. And, it is on the fourth day that a workable, usable universe became compete. So its necessary that the light from the stars must have reached the earth immediately.
_Tarski
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Re: Young Earth Frustration

Post by _Tarski »

Hoops wrote:
Basically they can't. However, there is always a clever (or not so clever) ad hoc way of getting around any given problem for YEC. For example, they could claim that stars are not really that far away at all or that the speed of light is not contant or that it isn't what we think it is. But modern science is an edifice of mutually supportive continually tested ideas and such ad hoc measures just create more problems than they solve--many many more.
No, they wouldn't.

I thought I gave a YEC answer. You asked about the stars. I wrote that the light in space was created on the fourth day. You'll remember that light had already been created, but this light done on the fourth day seems to be of a different kind, or had a different function. And, it is on the fourth day that a workable, usable universe became compete. So its necessary that the light from the stars must have reached the earth immediately.

Oh my!
I guess you don't know what ad hoc means since you just proved my point by putting out an ad hoc explanation. A very silly one that one can instantly see fits with nothing else in astronomy or physics.
when believers want to give their claims more weight, they dress these claims up in scientific terms. When believers want to belittle atheism or secular humanism, they call it a "religion". -Beastie

yesterday's Mormon doctrine is today's Mormon folklore.-Buffalo
_Hoops
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Re: Young Earth Frustration

Post by _Hoops »

Oh my!
Oh my, indeed.
I guess you don't know what ad hoc means
You've guessed wrong.
since you just proved my point by putting out an ad hoc explanation
However, I'm not required to satisfy a literal reading of Genesis with only the information you give me. In fact, all I have to do is determine if the facts we know could violate Genesis. I've shown that it does not, in this specific instance anyway.
A very silly one that one can instantly see fits with nothing else in astronomy or physics.
Why not?
_Milesius
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Re: Young Earth Frustration

Post by _Milesius »

Hoops,

I hope you see the light someday and abandon YEC. It is completely untenable and it plays right into the hands of the new atheist sith.
Caeli enarrant gloriam Dei
_Hoops
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Re: Young Earth Frustration

Post by _Hoops »

Milesius wrote:Hoops,

I hope you see the light someday and abandon YEC. It is completely untenable and it plays right into the hands of the new atheist sith.

I never said I was a YEC. I am familiar with some of their arguments.
_Tarski
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Re: Young Earth Frustration

Post by _Tarski »

.
Why not?



That we receive isn't just light. It contains a wealth information about stars including how old they are and their composition. Did God create the light to be streaming toward earth in just such a way as to make it look like there are distant stars and galaxies and when viewed at different times and from different angles. Did he intend to fool us by building into this created light the false information that these distant galaxies are billions of years old?

Ask yourself how each of the following subjects fit together in a mathematically precise way to give us correct information about the when, what and how of star and galaxy formation:

Optics
Electricity and Magnetism
Particle physics (nucleogenesis, neutrino production, thermonuclear fusion etc)
Thermodynamics
Quantum Mechanics
Calculus, probability theory, statistics



Is God putting on some kind of puppet show designed to fool us into thinking that the universe is orders of magnitude more vast, ancient and grand than it really is?

by the way, do you also deny that the Grand Canyon is the result of river erosion?


It occurs to me that YEC is like walking out into forest in the fall and supposing that all the leaves on the ground did not fall to the ground from the trees but were placed there one by one by angels a mere five minutes ago.
when believers want to give their claims more weight, they dress these claims up in scientific terms. When believers want to belittle atheism or secular humanism, they call it a "religion". -Beastie

yesterday's Mormon doctrine is today's Mormon folklore.-Buffalo
_keithb
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Re: Young Earth Frustration

Post by _keithb »

Tarski wrote:
just me wrote:

by the way, nice avatar.


iPhone sneeks up on wife---click!

I just hope no one thinks that it is me in the picture. LOL What you are looking at is 5' 4'' and 120 lbs and I hope obviously female.

Of course anyone reading this will be very confused when I put back up a different avatar (say one of myself again)


You're a lucky, lucky man Tarski.
"Joseph Smith was called as a prophet, dumb-dumb-dumb-dumb-dumb" -South Park
_keithb
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Re: Young Earth Frustration

Post by _keithb »

Hoops wrote:
Basically they can't. However, there is always a clever (or not so clever) ad hoc way of getting around any given problem for YEC. For example, they could claim that stars are not really that far away at all or that the speed of light is not contant or that it isn't what we think it is. But modern science is an edifice of mutually supportive continually tested ideas and such ad hoc measures just create more problems than they solve--many many more.
No, they wouldn't.

I thought I gave a YEC answer. You asked about the stars. I wrote that the light in space was created on the fourth day. You'll remember that light had already been created, but this light done on the fourth day seems to be of a different kind, or had a different function. And, it is on the fourth day that a workable, usable universe became compete. So its necessary that the light from the stars must have reached the earth immediately.


One of the problems with ad hoc explanations like this is that they are seldom well thought out enough to work through the consequences of these explanations that would flow as a result of the explanation.

Proposition: the speed of light was extremely fast for a brief period of time at the very beginning of creation of the universe, maintained until light from distant galaxies had a chance to reach the earth, but then was changed to the current value sometime afterward.

First, I would argue that this idea doesn't agree with the observed homogeneity in the cosmic microwave background radiation. Places with a larger amount of stellar density would absorb and re-emit photons with much higher frequency than regions with smaller stellar density, leading to local pockets of uniformity CMBR localized to galaxies (or galatic clusters) but a general inhomogeneity in the larger universe. However, this is in direct contradiction to the observed homogeneity in the CMBR.The Big Bang Theory, specifically incorporating an early expansion of the universe, explains this observed phenomenon much better.

Second, the photon flux through regions of space would have been much higher instantaneously around the time of the creation of the universe, leading to a temporary (and dramatic) spike in temperatures throughout the universe, again especially in regions of stellar density. This spike in temperatures should be observable and should be centered around 6000 or so years ago. Indeed, we should see spikes in temperatures uniformly around this 6000 year time mark and should be able to track this change uniformly throughout the universe as the light from this time starts to reach the earth. For example, we should be seeing this right now in solar systems that are 6000 light years away from earth. In 1000 years, they should be seeing this spike in solar systems 7000 light years from earth, and so on.

Third, there is the Hubble's law. In this law, sources moving away from an observer create a shift in the wavelength of light emitted towards the red. If there was a sudden increase in the speed of light 6000 years ago with the creation of the earth, then this should be translated as a much larger red shift "shock wave" that, again, is visible propagating from throughout the universe at distances of 6000 light years in a manner similar to that described in the last paragraph.

These are just three examples of observable phenomenon that I would expect as a result of a sudden change in the speed of light 6000 years ago. Since, as far as I'm aware, none of these things have ever been observed, I would suggest that the evidence is against any change in the speed of light 6000 years ago.

The scientific problems with the sudden creation of the universe 6000 years ago would be even more numerous.

Respectfully, I submit that, based on science, YEC is a load of crap. Thanks.
"Joseph Smith was called as a prophet, dumb-dumb-dumb-dumb-dumb" -South Park
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