Peterson and Gee's libel against Ritner?

The catch-all forum for general topics and debates. Minimal moderation. Rated PG to PG-13.
Post Reply
_Doctor CamNC4Me
_Emeritus
Posts: 21663
Joined: Mon Jun 15, 2009 11:02 am

Re: Peterson and Gee's libel against Ritner?

Post by _Doctor CamNC4Me »

Daniel Peterson wrote:Incidentally, Dr. Gee serves on the Board of Trustees of the Society for the Study of Egyptian Antiquities and as editor of the Journal of the Society for the Study of Egyptian Antiquities. He also serves on the program committee for the Egyptology and Ancient Israel Section of the Society of Biblical Literature.


Hello,

Why do I get this kind of image every time Mr. Peterson throws out the title of one his colleagues?

Image

V/R
Dr. Cam
In the face of madness, rationality has no power - Xiao Wang, US historiographer, 2287 AD.

Every record...falsified, every book rewritten...every statue...has been renamed or torn down, every date...altered...the process is continuing...minute by minute. History has stopped. Nothing exists except an endless present in which the Ideology is always right.
_Daniel Peterson
_Emeritus
Posts: 7173
Joined: Thu Jul 05, 2007 6:56 pm

Re: Peterson and Gee's libel against Ritner?

Post by _Daniel Peterson »

Why, obviously, because you are what you are.

Here's the form, incidentally, that exchanges like this typically take here:

Critic: "John Gee (or Dan Peterson, or ___________) is a cipher among real scholars!"

Chorus of Fellow Critics: "Huzzah! How true! Couldn't have said it better ourselves! What a nothing he is! Totally unknown outside Mormondumb!"

Person Who Actually Knows Something About It: "Well, actually, that's not true. Here are some indicators of his real status in his field."

Critic and Chorus: "What a show-off! Name-dropper! Pretentious egomaniac!"

And then, after some time has passed:

Critic: "John Gee (or Dan Peterson, or ___________) is a cipher among real scholars!"

Chorus of Fellow Critics: "Huzzah! How true! Couldn't have said it better ourselves! What a nothing he is! Totally unknown outside Mormondumb!"
_stemelbow
_Emeritus
Posts: 5872
Joined: Wed Jan 19, 2011 8:40 pm

Re: Peterson and Gee's libel against Ritner?

Post by _stemelbow »

Can someone help me here. Why would Ritner excuse himself in determining if Gee should receive a Phd, if Ritner himseld didn't think he deserved it and had the reasons, data, to support his opinion? And if he had those reasons and showed them to the committe why did they ignore his reasons and warrant Gee a Phd anyway?

I don't care much about this either way, really, but Ritner's story just sounds suspect to me--admittedly the dude who never pursued a PhD, so has no idea of the workings therein. It does sound like Ritner just doesn't like Gee to me, which would make sense why people here appreciate Ritner--they have something in common.
Love ya tons,
Stem


I ain't nuttin'. don't get all worked up on account of me.
_Kevin Graham
_Emeritus
Posts: 13037
Joined: Fri Oct 27, 2006 6:44 pm

Re: Peterson and Gee's libel against Ritner?

Post by _Kevin Graham »

Actually Dan, in my experiences it usually goes something like this.

John Gee: The critics have lied and deceived, taking data out of context to misrepresent the evidence. Such is the anti-Mormon way. But thankfully, by their fruits we shall know them.

(Critics then present indisputable proof that it is John Gee who has misrepresented the data)

Critic: Hey John, what were you saying about fruits?

John Gee: (silence)

Dan Peterson: John Gee has attended many [list the usual scholarly conferences] is a member of [list the usual committees] and has degrees in [list the resume].

Critic: So?

Dan Peterson: So there!

Critic: Are you planning to explain to us why John should get away with deceiving his audience, especially after preaching to us about the virtues of honest scholarship?

Dan Peterson: I should point out for our readers that whoever disagrees with you is immediately labeled a liar, coward or a hypocrite.

Critic: Do you have evidence for this?

Dan Peterson: I don't need evidence. I'm Dan Peterson.

Critic: Actually, it was John who did that "immediately." Such is Mormon Think when it comes to critics. We lie and wait to deceive. We gainsay. We're offenders for a word. You know the usual epithets. But in reality all we did was deduce the evidence to come to the logical conclussion that John Gee, is in fact a liar and a hypocrite when it comes to LDS apologetics.

Or maybe you can explain to us how it is possible for to "mistakenly" publish photos of the KEP. Photos that were manipulated in a unique way so that they appear to support his aargument? Or maybe you can explain why he flat out lied at the last FAIR conference with his idiotic presentation about the so-called random, or nonsequential characterr placement of the KEP?

No?

Didn't think so.
Last edited by YahooSeeker [Bot] on Tue Sep 06, 2011 3:02 pm, edited 1 time in total.
_Daniel Peterson
_Emeritus
Posts: 7173
Joined: Thu Jul 05, 2007 6:56 pm

Re: Peterson and Gee's libel against Ritner?

Post by _Daniel Peterson »

stemelbow wrote:Can someone help me here. Why would Ritner excuse himself in determining if Gee should receive a Phd, if Ritner himseld didn't think he deserved it and had the reasons, data, to support his opinion? And if he had those reasons and showed them to the committe why did they ignore his reasons and warrant Gee a Phd anyway?

I don't care much about this either way, really, but Ritner's story just sounds suspect to me--admittedly the dude who never pursued a PhD, so has no idea of the workings therein. It does sound like Ritner just doesn't like Gee to me, which would make sense why people here appreciate Ritner--they have something in common.

In the school I went to, doctoral committees routinely flunked doctoral candidates and showed them the door. (I never heard of a committee chairman or dissertation adviser resigning in protest over a candidate's incompetence. He or she would simply fail the candidate.) Those people then did not receive doctorates from that school -- though, in one or two cases, they may have attempted to earn doctorates elsewhere.

Incidentally, one of the critics here is suggesting (and has apparently suggested to others, elsewhere), that, as one of those with whom he has been in correspondence has summarized it, I have "hint[ed] at supposed details of confidential reviews (which cannot be seen nor analyzed by non-committee members)." For the record, I claim no such knowledge, and have never made any such hints. That doesn't demonstrate that I'm not "disgraceful," of course. Because I most definitely am disgraceful in virtually every respect. But not, as it happens, in that one.
_Kevin Graham
_Emeritus
Posts: 13037
Joined: Fri Oct 27, 2006 6:44 pm

Re: Peterson and Gee's libel against Ritner?

Post by _Kevin Graham »

Stem, it "sounds" like Ritner doesn't like Gee because that is exactly what Dan Peterson wants people to think. That was the whole point to his libel. However, like Ritner said, Gee's grades reflected no bias. Strange eh?

And you're right, you have no idea what it is like to go through the doctoral process. Meaning, your speculation is worthless. Ritner said it is not that unusual at all, and I think he is in a pretty good position to comment on it. The fact is Gee's "scholarship" from almost every angle, carries strong Mormon overtones. It appears clear to me he became an Egyptologist because the Church desperately needed some authority in that dept. For crying out loud he was given a job at BYU before he even finished his PhD, and there were apparently political forces at work trying to push the process along. That was the sense Ritner had, and it makes sense that it would be true. But Ritner wanted no part of it, it seems. There are quite a few LDS connections at Yale, from what I understand. They'd had at least one Mormon conference there with distinguished guest and the institute program there is quite healthy. Having Mormon clout at Yale is as unsurprising as Georgetown having Muslim clout.
_Daniel Peterson
_Emeritus
Posts: 7173
Joined: Thu Jul 05, 2007 6:56 pm

Re: Peterson and Gee's libel against Ritner?

Post by _Daniel Peterson »

Yale University granted John Gee a doctorate in Egyptology.

It's rather amusing to see at least one person here trying to explain that fact away as insignificant. John Gee's "scholarship," as he puts it, is and was a joke, according to the local expert here. And the easily-manipulated fools at Yale -- some kind of east coast diploma mill, apparently -- simply went along with it, perhaps bought out by Mormon money or leaned upon by Guido "The Fist," who directs the LDS Institute in New Haven. Again, according to this board's resident expert on such matters. (Which certainly seems a casually slanderous depiction of the person who replaced Robert Ritner as John Gee's dissertation chairman!)

Incidentally, BYU, at least, has fairly commonly hired people who were still in the process of writing their dissertations. I was hired in that fashion, and so, I think, were at least two of the other three Arabists in my department. I think it's becoming a bit less routine, though, as the academic job market has changed somewhat nowadays.

That is to say that there is nothing particularly unusual in John Gee's having been hired before he had quite finished his Ph.D.
_stemelbow
_Emeritus
Posts: 5872
Joined: Wed Jan 19, 2011 8:40 pm

Re: Peterson and Gee's libel against Ritner?

Post by _stemelbow »

Kevin Graham wrote:Stem, it "sounds" like Ritner doesn't like Gee because that is exactly what Dan Peterson wants people to think.


Kevin, let's be a little reasonable and stop trying to attack each other. I"m going with Ritner's words that make it sound all very suspect. I can't imagine a Yale scholar taking himself out of a committee because he doesn't think a candidate deserves a PhD from Yale or anywhere else. It makes absolutely no sense. A Yale scholar, i would imagine, would be so concerned about awarding a PhD to a candidate that doesn't deserve it, and have so much pride in his school and position, I woudl think, that he wouldn't in good consciense let it slide. And what about the committee awarding Gee a PhD even though Ritner supposedly supplied them with the factual reasons as to why he didn't deserve a PhD? Leave Peterson out of it, mr. Vendetta. It has nothing to do with him. Ritner himself has told the story that sound unbelievable to me, sans Peterson.

That was the whole point to his libel. However, like Ritner said, Gee's grades reflected no bias. Strange eh?


Huh? Ritner gave Gee good grades, but when it came time to consider whether he was a good PhD candidate he decided to recuse himself because he didn’t think Gee deserved a PhD? I don’t see how that’s reflecting anything. It sounds much more likely to me that Gee earned a PhD and Ritner for whatever reason had something against the man.

And you're right, you have no idea what it is like to go through the doctoral process. Meaning, your speculation is worthless. Ritner said it is not that unusual at all, and I think he is in a pretty good position to comment on it. The fact is Gee's "scholarship" from almost every angle, carries strong Mormon overtones. It appears clear to me he became an Egyptologist because the Church desperately needed some authority in that dept. For crying out loud he was given a job at BYU before he even finished his PhD, and there were apparently political forces at work trying to push the process along. That was the sense Ritner had, and it makes sense that it would be true. But Ritner wanted no part of it, it seems. There are quite a few LDS connections at Yale, from what I understand. They'd had at least one Mormon conference there with distinguished guest and the institute program there is quite healthy. Having Mormon clout at Yale is as unsurprising as Georgetown having Muslim clout.


Weird, somehow the story makes little sense to me, as reported by Ritner, but I have no right calling it out because I never went through the process, but you somehow have every reason to comment on it. Whatever, Kevin.
Love ya tons,
Stem


I ain't nuttin'. don't get all worked up on account of me.
_Daniel Peterson
_Emeritus
Posts: 7173
Joined: Thu Jul 05, 2007 6:56 pm

Re: Peterson and Gee's libel against Ritner?

Post by _Daniel Peterson »

Kevin Graham wrote:And you're right, you have no idea what it is like to go through the doctoral process. Meaning, your speculation is worthless.

Well said, Dr. Graham!
_Morley
_Emeritus
Posts: 3542
Joined: Mon Apr 25, 2011 6:19 pm

Re: Peterson and Gee's libel against Ritner?

Post by _Morley »

I'm not sure why there's any big deal to any of this. Doctoral committees change composition for any number of reasons. There are personal, professional, and political animosities in many doctoral processes. (I think the procedure is set up to be a tiny bit of hell.) Candidates are hired ABD (all but dissertation) all the time.

Speculation about the “why,” is just that: groundless speculation.
Post Reply