The unbelieving Fifth Column

Post by **_Coggins7** » Thu Feb 14, 2008 1:16 am

At least I try to address it rather then making believe that it never happened. You see Coggy, you do two things. Deny that facts of history.

When have I done this?

And deny that strange and odd doctrines like Adam God were ever taught.

Source?

There was never a filthy affair with Fanny.

Nope, no "affair" with her that there's any historical record of. He was sealed to her yes, but, uh...what "affair"?

If there was there are some real difficulties that conflict with your testimony. How do you reconcile the two then? It is difficult. Better to pretend.

I've mentioned again and again that I worked through the issue of polygamy many years ago as a teenager, through study, reflection, and sustained prayer. It was resolved in that manner. The fact that you have not seen fit to resolve these matters through the means the Lord has provided you are your own problem to solve. I do not know all the facts of the matter surrounding Joseph's marriages. Nor do you or any of the apostasy pimps at Signature Books. I am reconciled to his calling and role as the Prophet of the Restoration, and to the veracity of the principle of plural marriage. I am as well reconciled to the principle of animal sacrifice, which goes against fundamental psychological and emotional biases I have, but because of my testimony of the gospel as a whole, I need not feel put out that it was required of another people in another time and is a true principle.

Conforming oneself to the truth is quite fine. Conforming oneself to distortions or distorting truth to meet a false paradigm is another. There are a number of things in your LDS life that you do this with Coggins. Check out the bean in your own eye before you jump on me.

Distortions according to whom? You? Harmony? Quinn?

One accepts the Gospel as a system if one wants exaltation. You may certainly have a Terrestrial resurrection, and perhaps even make your way into one of the lower levels of the Celestial by picking and choosing from the cafeteria, but not "eternal lives". That comes only by living by "every word that proceedeth forth from the mouth of God", not x percent of them.

Post by **_beastie** » Thu Feb 14, 2008 1:44 am

Now, what you have to do, is provide the documentary evidence--not innuendo, not assumption--that Joseph had sex with her, either before the sealing, or, for that matter, afterwords (which, of course, being sealed to her, he could have done).

Good luck.

Why do we have to prove Joseph had sex with his wife?

God made it plain that polygamous marriage includes sex each time "he" discussed it. It was explained that polygamous marriage does not constitute adultery, and it was explained that the purpose was to raise seed. These both clearly involve SEX.

Post by **_Coggins7** » Thu Feb 14, 2008 2:16 am

God made it plain that polygamous marriage includes sex each time "he" discussed it. It was explained that polygamous marriage does not constitute adultery, and it was explained that the purpose was to raise seed. These both clearly involve SEX.

Fine. There was then, no "affair".

Post by **_beastie** » Thu Feb 14, 2008 2:38 am

Fine. There was then, no "affair".

So you concede that Fanny Alger was his wife, with whom he had the "right" to have sexual relations, according to the church's teachings?

Post by **_Runtu** » Thu Feb 14, 2008 4:42 am

Coggins7 wrote:
God made it plain that polygamous marriage includes sex each time "he" discussed it. It was explained that polygamous marriage does not constitute adultery, and it was explained that the purpose was to raise seed. These both clearly involve SEX.

Fine. There was then, no "affair".

Why won't you answer my questions?

Post by **_Jason Bourne** » Thu Feb 14, 2008 4:15 pm

At least I try to address it rather then making believe that it never happened. You see Coggy, you do two things. Deny that facts of history.

When have I done this?

On this thread you at least twice stated that there is no evidence of a Joseph Smith Fanny Alger affair or marriage. You have so stated on numerous other threads.

Nope, no "affair" with her that there's any historical record of. He was sealed to her yes, but, uh...what "affair"?

Is sounds like to me you are changing your tune. This is the first time I have seen you admit there was some sort of relationship.

Question-How were they sealed when the sealing power was not restored until 1835?

If there was there are some real difficulties that conflict with your testimony. How do you reconcile the two then? It is difficult. Better to pretend.

I've mentioned again and again that I worked through the issue of polygamy many years ago as a teenager, through study, reflection, and sustained prayer. It was resolved in that manner. The fact that you have not seen fit to resolve these matters through the means the Lord has provided you are your own problem to solve. I do not know all the facts of the matter surrounding Joseph's marriages.

I have resolved it in the matter the Lords gives. I studied about it, prayed about it and got an answer. That my answer differs from yours does not mean my answer is wrong. It could be, but so could yours. The difference between us is that I am not so narrow minded as to assume that the only right answer is the one I get nor that the only right answer is the one that puts Joseph in the best light.

I am reconciled to his calling and role as the Prophet of the Restoration, and to the veracity of the principle of plural marriage.

Bully for you. I think Joseph got this one wrong. That was the answer I got.

Conforming oneself to the truth is quite fine. Conforming oneself to distortions or distorting truth to meet a false paradigm is another. There are a number of things in your LDS life that you do this with Coggins. Check out the bean in your own eye before you jump on me.

Distortions according to whom? You? Harmony? Quinn?

The distortion I was referring to was your denying that Joseph Smith and Fanny had a relationship. Now it seems you agree they did but that it was sanctioned by the sealing power which had not been restored.

One accepts the Gospel as a system if one wants exaltation. You may certainly have a Terrestrial resurrection, and perhaps even make your way into one of the lower levels of the Celestial by picking and choosing from the cafeteria, but not "eternal lives". That comes only by living by "every word that proceedeth forth from the mouth of God", not x percent of them.

A couple points. First, you do not determine my status in the hereafter. Jesus does. Second, since LDS prophets have uttered their own opinions, and this according to you and many other apologists, it seems one must be a cafeteria Mormon to determine what really is from God and what is not. So I am not too worried that in my mind and heart I have to set some things aside and retain others that seem good, true and right. All members, even you Loran, do this to a certain extent.

Post by **_Brackite** » Fri Feb 15, 2008 11:32 pm

The Book of Mormon Witnesss, Oliver Cowdery, Proclaimed and Stated that Joseph Smith did indeed had an affair with Fanny Alger. The Following Here is Part of a Letter, Written By Book of Mormon, Witness, Oliver Cowdery:

'When he [Joseph Smith] was there we had some conversation in which in every instance I did not fail to affirm that which I had said was strictly true. A dirty, nasty, filthy affair of his and Fanny Alger's was talked over in which I strictly declared that I had never deserted from the truth in the matter, and as I supposed was admitted by himself.'

[ Letter From [Oiver] Cowdery to his Brother Warren A. Cowdery concerning a discussion that he had with Joseph Smith, Jr. regarding Fanny Alger, who is considered to be Smith’s first plural wife. Quoted in Brodie, No Man Knows My History, p. 459. (January 21, 1838) :
http://en.wikiquote.org/wiki/Oliver_Cowdery ]

Post by **_Pokatator** » Mon Feb 18, 2008 1:14 pm

Brackite wrote:The Book of Mormon Witnesss, Oliver Cowdery, Proclaimed and Stated that Joseph Smith did indeed had an affair with Fanny Alger. The Following Here is Part of a Letter, Written By Book of Mormon, Witness, Oliver Cowdery:

'When he [Joseph Smith] was there we had some conversation in which in every instance I did not fail to affirm that which I had said was strictly true. A dirty, nasty, filthy affair of his and Fanny Alger's was talked over in which I strictly declared that I had never deserted from the truth in the matter, and as I supposed was admitted by himself.'

[ Letter From [Oiver] Cowdery to his Brother Warren A. Cowdery concerning a discussion that he had with Joseph Smith, Jr. regarding Fanny Alger, who is considered to be Smith’s first plural wife. Quoted in Brodie, No Man Knows My History, p. 459. (January 21, 1838) :
http://en.wikiquote.org/wiki/Oliver_Cowdery ]

Well I wonder what Mr. Will thinks of Oliver. I wonder if a letter between brothers is:

Will the ScareCrow wrote:Indeed, I am convinced that many of them continue to lurk in the foyers of our chapels and on the back rows of Priesthood and Relief Society meetings with the express purpose of working from within to sow seeds of doubt; a fifth column dedicated to eroding faith and testimony in as subtle a fashion as possible.

lurky enough, doubtful enough, far enough in the back row and subtle enough to be a threat to Will and the church as he describes in his quote? It seems that this horrid practice of telling the truth has been going on since the beginning of the church. Poor Will.