Keeping Religious Zealots Out of Power

[_Jersey Girl]

Luckily though the Law of Moses is not in force the prohibition on killing is still in force according to the D&C.

Killing in what regard and for what reason?

[_The Nehor]

Killing in what regard and for what reason?

The command is not to kill. The only exception given in the D&C is in the Law on War and retribution. You can kill after:

1. Being commanded by God by revelation to do so

or

2. If someone brings harm to you or your family, is not repentant, they have committed three offenses and you have warned them off after the third offense, and they then commit a fourth.

[_Gazelam]

Ray A,

Those who toil one hour cannot possibly receive the same reward as those who toil 12 hours. And so forth.

Excellent point with this reference.

Heres how it works. Every "kingdom" operates under a perscribed set of laws. In the realm of spiritual things, obedience to laws invites the Spirit of the Lord into your life. This spirit provides a cleansing and sanctifying effect to a persons soul (Spirit and body).

Baptism serves as the article of adoption in sealing upon a person the name of Christ and providing them with the gift of the Holy Ghost to guide them in being more obedient to the universal laws that invite the Spirit of the Lord into their lives. The ordinances of the gospel are necessary to be brought into the eternal family and participate in all that has been prepared for us in the world to come.

A person does not have to be a member of the church in oreder to live a spiritual life. This is what is meant by the workers arriving late in the day but receiving the same pay. whether you are brought into the family late in life, or born into it, the result is the same if you have been obedient to eternal laws. This does not mean a person should put off becoming a member of the church, because all are held accountable to truths they know.

The degree to which we accustom our souls to the Spirit of the Lord is what effects our body in the time of ressurection. That is why there are different types of ressurection, some have become accustomed to a Celestial degree of the Spirit of the Lord, and so on.

A homosexual lifestyle is far removed from the Spirit of the Lord, and damns a person for all eternity if it is not stopped.

[_Ray A]

A person does not have to be a member of the church in oreder to live a spiritual life. This is what is meant by the workers arriving late in the day but receiving the same pay. whether you are brought into the family late in life, or born into it, the result is the same if you have been obedient to eternal laws. This does not mean a person should put off becoming a member of the church, because all are held accountable to truths they know.

If I do an honest study of the Book of Mormon, and conclude it's not historical, will God hold me accountable for making such a decision?

Let's put it in another perspective. Let's say you read the Koran, and you conclude it's not from God, or maybe God only influenced parts of it, and you reject Islam or becoming a Muslim, will God hold you accountable for that?

[_Gazelam]

A person does not have to be a member of the church in oreder to live a spiritual life. This is what is meant by the workers arriving late in the day but receiving the same pay. whether you are brought into the family late in life, or born into it, the result is the same if you have been obedient to eternal laws. This does not mean a person should put off becoming a member of the church, because all are held accountable to truths they know.

If I do an honest study of the Book of Mormon, and conclude it's not historical, will God hold me accountable for making such a decision?

Let's put it in another perspective. Let's say you read the Koran, and you conclude it's not from God, or maybe God only influenced parts of it, and you reject Islam or becoming a Muslim, will God hold you accountable for that?

Ray,

You know whats right and whats wrong. I think your attuned to the Holy Ghost well enough to determine these things on your own. There is plenty of evidence for the Book of Mormon, especially when you look at it through the window of the Temple Ceremony.

Will God hold me accountable for not being a Muslim or Islamic? I'm sure he expects me not to be, so he holds me accountable in that way.

On using the Holy Ghost in making decisions: http://speeches.BYU.edu/reader/reader.php?id=6028

Print it out and read it that way, I don't like the way the page is set up.

[_Ray A]

You know whats right and whats wrong. I think your attuned to the Holy Ghost well enough to determine these things on your own.

I think most people know what's right or wrong, Gaz. Some things are clearly defined "wrong" by society, and society's laws. Some things considered wrong yesteryear are not considered wrong now. Same goes for the Church in some areas of past and current practice.

There is plenty of evidence for the Book of Mormon, especially when you look at it through the window of the Temple Ceremony.

But that's not the "window" I'm talking about. If your approach to the Book of Mormon is through a "spiritual lens", then I'd probably agree with you. Eugene England often described his spiritual experiences with the Book of Mormon in quite dramatic terms, and I have no beef with that. Some of my Muslim friends have described their spiritual experiences with the Koran very similarly. You can't argue with that. It's like trying to argue with someone who says, "I'm in love with my wife".

I'm talking about historical believability issues. One example: The story of Joseph in Egypt in Genesis comes across to me as quite believable (even if it's a story with some literary licence taken). Nephi doesn't. The Brother of Jared doesn't. The Three Nephites don't. That looks to me, like obvious crafting and re-writing of the episode of Jesus with John The Beloved. The "mythic proportions" of the Book of Mormon look quite obvious to me here, and in this sense very much more like pseudepigrapha than history. Ditto for many other things in the Book of Mormon. Chris gives one good example, in my opinion. It all looks too obvious as pseudepigrapha, and none too much like genuine history. And I've already dealt with some glaring anachronisms.

Will God hold me accountable for not being a Muslim or Islamic? I'm sure he expects me not to be, so he holds me accountable in that way.

As my mother used to say, "every man to his own order" (or belief). If a Muslim says that Allah verily speaks through the Koran, and only believes in eating Halal meat, and insists on praying five times a day, then I'm not going to denegrate that. Just don't ask me to believe it as well.

On using the Holy Ghost in making decisions: http://speeches.BYU.edu/reader/reader.php?id=6028

I'll have a read of this when I get more time tomorrow. At a glance, some of it is very speculative, like this:

The Prophet Joseph once told a man who was critical of himself because he hadn't come out of the waters of baptism prophesying and speaking in tongues as someone else had: "You had more believing blood." He elucidated the point that those who are of the blood of Israel will often experience less dramatic physical kinds of manifestations than those who are being adopted into the blood.

Yet the whole "nation of Israel" still remains devoted to - Judaism. And no amount of "believing blood" has changed that in the past 2,000 years. It seems like Joseph said this to appease the man with a bit of "spin". I'm okay, you're okay. But this concept put forward by Joseph on this occasion is patent mythic nonsense.

You need to be more skeptical, Gaz.

[_Droopy]

If I do an honest study of the Book of Mormon, and conclude it's not historical, will God hold me accountable for making such a decision?

Yes, quite clearly so.

Let's put it in another perspective. Let's say you read the Koran, and you conclude it's not from God, or maybe God only influenced parts of it, and you reject Islam or becoming a Muslim, will God hold you accountable for that?

As Allah does not exist, quite clearly not.

[_Ray A]

If I do an honest study of the Book of Mormon, and conclude it's not historical, will God hold me accountable for making such a decision?

Yes, quite clearly so.

And my account will be: You're a very good preacher, but you're a lousy historian.

As Allah does not exist, quite clearly not.

Forgive me, Cogs, but I hadn't realised you've turned to atheism.

[_Droopy]

And my account will be: You're a very good preacher, but you're a lousy historian.

But I have three things you apparently do not: A testimony of the Book of Mormon, received from God through the power of revelation, an open mind, and an imagination (“Imagination is more important than knowledge. For knowledge is limited to all we now know and understand, while imagination embraces the entire world, and all there ever will be to know and understand" - Albert Einstein). Please don't bother me with any dreary, barnacle encrusted positivistic certitudes about what you think is or isn't known about ancient Mesoamerica, or the hoary nostrums regarding the Book of Mormon's alleged nineteenth century origins. Its all been answered plausibly, and the battle has not been yet joined by any stretch of the imagination.

Forgive me, Cogs, but I hadn't realized you've turned to atheism.

Yes, just as much as Abraham was an atheist, and he had far more material to work with then Allah

[_Ray A]

Please don't bother me with any dreary, barnacle encrusted positivistic certitudes about what you think is or isn't known about ancient Mesoamerica, or the hoary nostrums regarding the Book of Mormon's alleged nineteenth century origins.

I didn't. The post was directed to Gaz.

Its all been answered plausibly, and the the battle has not been yet joined by any stretch of the imagination.

I would argue otherwise. It would take a great stretch of imagination to believe the Book of Mormon is history. So great, that no past or living historian I know would consider it history. In fact, no non-Mormon scholar, has accepted it as history, and even a few Mormon scholars don't. You might add to that the name of Van Hale.

Yes, just as much as Abraham was an atheist, and he had far more material to work with then Allah

And Abraham was a Jew, not a Christian, and seemed to know nothing about his ancestor Adam teaching Christianity in the Garden of Eden (not the Missouri one).