The Mormon Gulag

[_GoodK]

Way to go, Brother Englund, for intentionally avoiding all the tough parts of my message to you. No doubt that took some serious effort.

Are you at all familiar with the meaning of the word "if" in my statement above. It is intended to be non-accusatory, but conditional.

Even better, I am familiar with the methods of discourse you prefer. As I clearly demonstrated in my last post, your purpose is damage control.

One may reasonably view the tilte as a sweeping accusation against the Mormon Church for owning and operating a "forced-labor prison camp".

That would be an unreasonable assumption, especially in light of the many other statements on the website.

Like this:

We are not - in any way and by any means - taking a stand or voicing an opinion on the beliefs or practices of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints (Mormons).

If that doesn't suffice in documenting my conditional statement, take a few moments to brows the "Mormon Influence" section of your website.

Good to know. Hey, I found this on the "Mormon Influence" section of http://www.MormonGulag.com. Is this the website you were talking about?


"We are not - in any way and by any means - taking a stand or voicing an opinion on the beliefs or practices of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints (Mormons).

In fact, we feel that the fundamental practices of the Utah Boys Ranch are diametrically opposed to the teachings of the founder of the Mormon church, Joseph Smith.
 
The 11th Article of Faith:
 
 
          “We claim the privilege of worshiping Almighty God according to the dictates of our own conscience, and allow all men the same privilege, let them worship how, where, or what they may.”
 
Furthermore, we have no reason to believe that current Church leaders have any knowledge of the abusive, unethical, and illegal operations of the Utah Boys Ranch. Rather, we believe the opposite. It is our hope that Church members will do what they can to help distance themselves from this place."

I suppose that the skittish or paranoid among us can let their imaginations take flights of fancy in conjecturing about my motives in posting on this thread, and ignore or dismiss my salient comments accordingly.

What an unkind and unChristlike thing to say, Brother Englund. Skittish, Paranoid?

What hyperbole, Brother Englund. Salient comments??!!

I will leave you to puzzle over the question: "If you are unwilling to thoughtfully listen to others and take them seriously, then can you reasonably expect that others will listen to you and tak you seriously?"

Rather than ponder ridiculous questions from those with ulterior motives, I'd rather ask you to puzzle over a question of my own. Do you really think I am stupid enough to buy the snake oil you're trying to sell me? Do you really think I am naïve enough to think you're here to help? Anyone born before Monday could see you poisoning the well and injecting doubt into this thread from a mile away.

We all know why you are here. It was confirmed by you ducking out and avoiding my comments after being called on it. And in case you are still wondering, I don't appreciate it.

You can't even keep from personally insulting me, and you don't even know anything about me.

Ponder that for a while, Brother Englund.

I'd like for you not to avoid this comment though, and show how us all how much integrity a defender of the faith has:

I challenge you to produce a single "sweeping accusation against the Church" from my website. Otherwise I expect you, as a gentlemen, to kindly retract that statement.

[_Jason Bourne]

I don't think this is about FARMS, other than the fact that apologists are just as stupid and gullible as the other parents who sent their children to this place.

Other places like this exist that are not related to Mormonism. Some are tied to other religions some to no religion at all. Some people are just stupid and do stupid things.

However, given the strong connection that the place has to Mormonism, it is about Mormonism.

Or perhaps peoples misapplication of things Mormon.I do not think the LDS leaders condone outfits like this. Interestingly I work with someone that had a kid out of control-far more than it sounds like goodk was-goodk seems just a kid doing things kids sometimes do, in fact a lot like my son was at 15-18. But this other boy was dangerous and beat his dad and threatened the family. I was worried I was going to find my co-worker in the morning news. He actually considered sending this kid to a place like this somewhere in Utah actually. It was not this place being discussed but may have been like it. This man is Catholic but not avid about it. He ended up not but he was inches from it.

I think it highlights the fact that Mormon theology creates desperation in family members when their loved ones won't tow the Mormon line.

People can be desperate but the LDS gospel aslo teaches love, long suffering, patience, enduing trials and so on. That fact that some ignore these things and opt for draconian measures at times does not meant he Church is culpable. And in fact few who have troubled children take such a course.

[_GoodK]

Or perhaps peoples misapplication of things Mormon.I do not think the LDS leaders condone outfits like this.

I just wish the church would pull its missionaries out of there. It would make it look a whole let less involved.

[_Droopy]

Daniel, you might benefit from trying to increase your understanding of how this all came about from GoodK's perspective.

Mindless, bigoted hatred? Self justificational, self serving rancor? The lies, mischaracterization, and volitional distortion of LDS doctrine and culture that have been the primary marks of Goodk's venomous posturing since coming to this forum?

Goodk is the intellectual equivalent, with respect to the Church, of what Mahmoud Ahmadinejad is, politically, to the Jews.

[_Droopy]

When is the last time you two chilled without Ed Snow in the room?

Suspicion

A call to arms. A battle cry. Marching orders.

Paranoia

No... you've got it backwards. He sends you the money orders.

Delusional fantasies

Perhaps this is a sign of dying brain cells -- but I fail to see the connection between DCP coming onto a thread I take very seriously and trying to poison it via a still small voice of doubt and trying to ruin his "good mood."

Either disingenuity or further self delusion...

In future, it appears that an entire section of the DSM is going to have to be given over to analysis of the standard symptoms of ex-Mormon personality structure.

Call it EABIPERD -- Ex-Mormon Affective Borderline Intellectual Deficit Personality Disorder.

I can see support groups and crisis centers springing up all over the place for this as soon as awareness is raised as to its prevalence...

[_GoodK]

drunken rambling

I've missed you, sexy boy. What took you so long to come and rub your stink on this thread? Internet connection down at the Transformation House?

Not like I don't adore Loran/Droopy/Coggins/ShirleyPhelps, but any mod want to explain with his drool shouldn't be moved to its appropriate forum?

[_Droopy]

Anyone notice how I was just brought up again?

I feel absolutely no obligation to defend this organization, of which I know nothing. It has nothing to do with me. I'm not "damaged" by it in any way.

Nor is FARMS. Gad's heroic Scartcholeptic exertions notwithstanding, this story has utterly nothing to do with FARMS.

And it has precious little to do with Mormonism, as such, either.

Nope. Nor by the FLDS, or Warren Jeffs, or MMM, or Ted Bundy, or Brian David Mitchell and Wanda Ileen Barzee, or...

One little two little three little strawmen. Four little five little...

[_Droopy]

drunken rambling

I've missed you, sexy boy. What took you so long to come and rub your stink on this thread? Internet connection down at the Transformation House?

Not like I don't adore Loran/Droopy/Coggins/ShirleyPhelps, but any mod want to explain with his drool shouldn't be moved to its appropriate forum?

From whence did you extract the "drunken ramblintg" quotation, as I never wrote it, and who is Shirley Phelps?

[_GoodK]

more drunken rambling

It's best to ignore those who are merely whoring for attention.

Still waiting for a moderator to move Loran/Droopy/Coggins/Shirley Phelp's message board drunk dialing(and flagrant attempt to derail) to a more appropriate forum so I can respond to him in the manner in which he or she deserves.

[_Jason Bourne]

Wasn't there a camp like this in Hawaii as well? Back in the 80s there was a family in my ward who sent all three of their rowdy boys to a camp in Hawaii where they were forced to pick pineapples. I'm not sure how much it was involved with the church, but my impression was that they were affiliated in a similar way as this Boys Ranch. Anyway, the three boys came back in even worse shape and into drugs as well.

The Hawaii program was called youth development enterprises (YDE). It sounds like the program that GoodK is describing was much more intense. I don't know anyone in the YDE program who did more than 6 months. The YDE people were all LDS as far as I know, and each work group (14 kids) had an LDS counselor.

The Boys Ranch sounds like it has similarities to YDE, but on a 'whole nuther level'. Is it still in operation?

cacheman[/quote]

I had a friend that went to Hawaii for a summer in the 70s to pick pineapples but it was not for problem kids. He just did it to earn money.