No. I quoted you perfectly. I'm not the one that self-describes as a "seething cauldron of hate". Your self-deprecatoin is a window into your heart. You have some serious introspection to do, Mr. Peterson.
Chap wrote:I think I asked sometime, somewhere, to be informed who the great LDS abolitionists were in the 19th century. If there was an answer, I missed it.
Who were the LDS who worked and sacrificed the most in the ante-bellum period for the emancipation of their black brothers and sisters from slavery?
There was an answer.
You missed it.
Incidentally, Abraham Lincoln wasn't an abolitionist. In fact, he opposed them.
Chap wrote:I think I asked sometime, somewhere, to be informed who the great LDS abolitionists were in the 19th century. If there was an answer, I missed it.
Who were the LDS who worked and sacrificed the most in the ante-bellum period for the emancipation of their black brothers and sisters from slavery?
There was an answer.
You missed it.
Oh this was an answer?
DCP wrote:Joseph Smith would be the most famous, I suppose. You probably recall that, like Abraham Lincoln, he proposed the sale of western lands by the government in order to fund the manumission of slaves and their repatriation to Africa.
However, Mormons were generally on the margins of American civilization (literally on the frontier, and in other ways) during the relevant period, and were preoccupied with, among other things, their own survival and with migrations from New York to Ohio to Missouri to Illinois to the Rocky Mountains. So they weren't heavily involved with the abolitionists in the drawing rooms of Boston and such places.
Basically, there weren't any followers of the prophet who took an active part in the movement to end slavery. I get the picture.
(I like the way DCP tries a quick sideswipe about 'drawing rooms' here, to make it sound like the abolitionists were some kind of lily-handed bunch of dillettantes handing round cups of China tea, while the manly Mormons were out there struggling with the Real World. Nice move DCP)
Zadok: I did not have a faith crisis. I discovered that the Church was having a truth crisis. Maksutov: That's the problem with this supernatural stuff, it doesn't really solve anything. It's a placeholder for ignorance.
truth dancer wrote:I don't think GBH felt superior or smug at all, nor do I think he lacked charity.
I suspect that you actually understand quite clearly that I wasn't referring to President Hinckley.
Then I hope it was not aimed at me for affirming the words of President Hinckley. If I seemed smug, I apologize.
Now here is a part of apologetics I have never understood: Why not just admit when we have been wrong and say we are sorry. That is a part of the repentance process, is it not? That part of feeling one can never admit to past mistakes seems ill founded and compounds the error that repentance will wash away. Humility is not a source of weakness. In the words of Jesus it is a source of both strength and blessing.
If we have truth to offer then we must be our truest.
moksha wrote:Now here is a part of apologetics I have never understood: Why not just admit when we have been wrong and say we are sorry. That is a part of the repentance process, is it not? That part of feeling one can never admit to past mistakes seems ill founded and compounds the error that repentance will wash away. Humility is not a source of weakness. In the words of Jesus it is a source of both strength and blessing.
If we have truth to offer then we must be our truest.
Here's what I don't understand:
I've said several times, here on this thread, that Brigham Young was wrong on this point.
I'm wondering how many times I have to say that in order to have it register.
"Who were the LDS who worked and sacrificed the most in the ante-bellum period for the emancipation of their black brothers and sisters from slavery?"
They were there by the thousands and their names are kept in a secret First Presidency file alongside all the LDS Germans who actively hid and protected the Jews during WWII.
Peterson doesn't trust Quinns writings. What period? When he was a top prof at BYU? When he was working with Arrington and LDS Historians on research for the Church? Or only after he was ousted for refusing to change his publising of Truth? We may not like the Truth. Boyd Packer is right in that some of historical truth really isn't too useful. But, it is Truth and if Joseph Smith is to be believed, it is part and parcel of The Gospel. You can't pick and choose when it comes to Truth. And telling lies to persuade people of truth is the biggest lie of all whether by commission or omission.
JoetheClerk wrote:"Who were the LDS who worked and sacrificed the most in the ante-bellum period for the emancipation of their black brothers and sisters from slavery?"
They were there by the thousands and their names are kept in a secret First Presidency file alongside all the LDS Germans who actively hid and protected the Jews during WWII.
I'm always a bit slow in picking up this kind of thing, but I suspect there just may be some irony here.
Zadok: I did not have a faith crisis. I discovered that the Church was having a truth crisis. Maksutov: That's the problem with this supernatural stuff, it doesn't really solve anything. It's a placeholder for ignorance.
Daniel Peterson wrote:I've said several times, here on this thread, that Brigham Young was wrong on this point.
What point?
A couple of DCP quotes from earlier in this very very long thread.
DCP wrote:
JohnStuartMill wrote:Even more problematic for Daniel is that Brigham Young claimed that "this would always be so". Well, here we are in 2009, and nobody's being put to death for black/white intermarriage. The "prophet" was wrong.
Yes, I think he was.
DCP wrote:I haven't tried to excuse it. Brigham Young's racism, like Abraham Lincoln's, was ugly and deeply problematic.
I think DCP has made it clear that he does not like racism, and that he hopes his behaviour cannot reasonably be seen as racist. I see no reason to conclude that he is being any more consciously untruthful than the average white US male who says this kind of thing. Some aspects of past LDS racism he is prepared to say were just flat wrong: see above.
Those of us who nurse the perhaps bizarre hope that LDS apologists may sometimes treat their opponents as having some degree of moral and intellectual integrity must set an example in the way we treat them. So let's be fair.
Zadok: I did not have a faith crisis. I discovered that the Church was having a truth crisis. Maksutov: That's the problem with this supernatural stuff, it doesn't really solve anything. It's a placeholder for ignorance.
Chap wrote:I think DCP has made it clear that he does not like racism, and that he hopes his behaviour cannot reasonably be seen as racist. I see no reason to conclude that he is being any more consciously untruthful than the average white US male who says this kind of thing. Some aspects of past LDS racism he is prepared to say were just flat wrong: see above.
Those of us who nurse the perhaps bizarre hope that LDS apologists may sometimes treat their opponents as having some degree of moral and intellectual integrity must set an example in the way we treat them. So let's be fair.
I don't think DCP is a racist, but he must understand that trying to excuse racist policies might make you look racist. I do feel sorry for apologists that need to defend the church's past racist policies. It can't be easy or fun.
"We have taken up arms in defense of our liberty, our property, our wives, and our children; we are determined to preserve them, or die." - Captain Moroni - 'Address to the Inhabitants of Canada' 1775