Mormonism's Greatest Downfall.

[_rcrocket]

24 Behold, David and Solomon truly had many wives and concubines, which thing was abominable before me, saith the Lord.

I've never seen this as a contradiction, but certainly as an example of the incompleteness of individual scriptural selections. As a fan of the Old Testament as literature, having read it many times (and not quite believing that all parts of it are true or literal), the lives of David and Solomon are fascinating. God plainly reveals the reason for Solomon's downfall -- he married foreign wives who turned his heart away from God. The "abomination" is spelled out in the Old Testament -- it was not the act of multiple marriage but the act of marrying the wrong wives.

David's story is different. At present, the scriptures reveal that his status is in doubt. The sin of taking the one additional wife -- Bathsheba -- and the way he took her even after seeing God, was a terrible sin. It was probably akin to denying the Holy Ghost. David and Bathsheba lost their first child as a result of this sin. So. literally, he falls within the generalized anathema scripture you cite.

Plural marriage is an eternal principle. It is founded on the notion that there will be far fewer men who will accept the atoning sacrifice than women. It has to do, somehow, with the struggle in the Garden of Eden, the choice Eve made, and the promise that she would be saved in childbearing. I don't get it all, but the fact that women are more spiritual and willing to accept the spirit is a fact.

[_why me]

After some Googling, why me knows the truth. He purposely looks for positive reinforcement that polygamy was really "inspired by God", without considering the intricacies discussed in books like Mormon Enigma, and In Sacred Loneliness. My educated guess is that why me has never opened a page of these books, and engages in "Google apologetics" in regard to polygamy.

I do no such thing. You and your friends are coming to the aid of Joseph's wives. When in fact, if they would come back to life they would give you a parasol over the head. That was my point.

[_harmony]

I would have done no different.

So... lying to protect one's extramarital peccadillos is acceptable, as is lying about receiving revelation, lying about the women who were brave enough to refuse to accept what they knew was ungodly, lying about what one's friends are doing is okay. That publically smearing the reputation of innocent women and destroying the printing press that was going to expose all those lies is also... okay.

That's good to know, whyme. Some of us think that's lowdown and despicable, but it's good to know which side of the honesty fence you've landed on.

[_Inconceivable]

I would have done no different.

So, please clarify your position, why me.

Is this your reference to both you and Smith's imperfections?

If so, isn't it time to learn from one dirtbag's mistakes and move on?

[_why me]

I would have done no different.

So... lying to protect one's extramarital peccadillos is acceptable, as is lying about receiving revelation, lying about the women who were brave enough to refuse to accept what they knew was ungodly, lying about what one's friends are doing is okay. That publically smearing the reputation of innocent women and destroying the printing press that was going to expose all those lies is also... okay.

That's good to know, whyme. Some of us think that's lowdown and despicable, but it's good to know which side of the honesty fence you've landed on.

First harmony you need to put it all in perspective and what was transpiring at that time. Polygamy was a hot potato for sure. If it were to go public, all hell would have broken out with the neighboring nonmormon community and many lives would have been lost. Now do I wish that the saints at that time would have more courage? Sure. But one thing that I do know is this: if the secret would have come out among the gentiles, the Mormons would have been slaughtered by mobs. Were the gentile communities capable of it? You bet. Just look at what happened to the Indians. No mercy.

And so, yes, to protect life I would have lied. I have a different take on it than you. To lie to protect life is okay with me. But for you and your friends, it is all about sex. Sorry, I just don't buy it.

[_harmony]

I do no such thing. You and your friends are coming to the aid of Joseph's wives. When in fact, if they would come back to life they would give you a parasol over the head. That was my point.

Actually, I think the women who were duped into those relationships with Joseph got exactly what they deserved: skulking around behind their friend's back to spread their legs for her lying husband, in some cases lying to their own husbands, never being supported by a man who called upon others to financially support him, submitting to abortions so Joseph never left a trail.

You may call them courageous and be proud to be part of their progeny. I would be ashamed. I am ashamed and I'm not even related to any of them. They shame the church and shame all the converts who have joined since then with their despicable lies. Their actions are used to legitimize what our scriptures call the Abomination, and it still plagues the church today.

Polygamy in my husband's family didn't start until 'way later in Utah, when one man took a widow and 2 small children under his care. Her journal is so painful to read; it's heartbreaking in the loneliness and sorrow she lived with daily. I thank God every day that polygamy didn't start in my family at all. I have a few horse thieves, a couple of moonshiners, and some pretty lame trombone players, but I don't have anyone who married more than one spouse.

It's the ones who refused him, who resisted the siren call of empty promises that every religious con man who ever duped a congregation out of their money and their righteousness produces, who thought more of their personal integrity than they did of climbing the social ladder of their time... you know, the ones who were slandered and ridiculed yet kept their integrity intact, those are the ones I call courageous and who I respect... not the easy women who lifted their skirts and spread their legs for a night here and there with a predator who lied repeatedly to his wife, a women they claimed as friend and/or mentor, broke her heart, and proved that William Law and his friends were right.

[_why me]

I would have done no different.

So, please clarify your position, why me.

Is this your reference to both you and Smith's imperfections?

If so, isn't it time to learn from one dirtbag's mistakes and move on?

I just clarified my position with harmony. Joseph Smith was a human being and as a human being he had imperfections. He was learning just we are learning. I think that he perhaps could have handled it differently but then again I was not having his experiences as he fought off mobs and apostates. Not to mention at times an unhappy Emma. But he accomplished much in his life and he grew in stature as time moved along. He died at 38 and within that short period of time that he became prophet until his death, he did much. What drove his accomplishments? Lust?? Please....What drove his accomplishments and failures was the foundation that he was called to lay: a foundation to revolutionize the world.

He was loved and hated. Not much has changed, has it?

[_harmony]

First harmony you need to put it all in perspective and what was transpiring at that time. Polygamy was a hot potato for sure. If it were to go public, all hell would have broken out with the neighboring nonmormon community and many lives would have been lost. Now do I wish that the saints at that time would have more courage? Sure. But one thing that I do know is this: if the secret would have come out among the gentiles, the Mormons would have been slaughtered by mobs. Were the gentile communities capable of it? You bet. Just look at what happened to the Indians. No mercy.

And so, yes, to protect life I would have lied. I have a different take on it than you. To lie to protect life is okay with me. But for you and your friends, it is all about sex. Sorry, I just don't buy it.

Joseph created his own fiasco, Whyme. He and his cohorts were responsible for the firestorm that eventually swallowed him whole. He brought it on himself when he took Fanny to the barn in 1833, 3 years prior to the revelation that restored the necessary authority. So you see... I don't buy that revelation either. He was using the power God had given him to establish righteousness and instead he established a scheme that reeked of unrighteous dominion. And we know what happens to men who use their priesthood unrighteously. So we know what happened to Joseph's authority the instant he took Fanny to the barn. It was gone and he spent the rest of his days trying to cover it up. He was unrepentent and defiant, and he used the trust of his followers to his own advantage.

God will not be mocked. The church bears those scars still today. We're reaping what he sowed.

[_why me]

Joseph created his own fiasco, Whyme. He and his cohorts were responsible for the firestorm that eventually swallowed him whole. He brought it on himself when he took Fanny to the barn in 1833, 3 years prior to the revelation that restored the necessary authority. So you see... I don't buy that revelation either. He was using the power God had given him to establish righteousness and instead he established a scheme that reeked of unrighteous dominion. And we know what happens to men who use their priesthood unrighteously. So we know what happened to Joseph's authority the instant he took Fanny to the barn. It was gone and he spent the rest of his days trying to cover it up. He was unrepentent and defiant, and he used the trust of his followers to his own advantage.

God will not be mocked. The church bears those scars still today. We're reaping what he sowed.

I don't see it that way. You bring up Fanny. Fanny did perfectly well when she left with her family. She married young and had many children. And she never said a negative word about Joseph Smith to my knowledge. Likewise for his other wives. Isn't it strange? You put him a monster. The women put him as something else. I tend to go with his wives. What killed Joseph Smith? Intolerance. And yet, it seems that must be the way it had to be.

I don't see Joseph as something evil. It does not match his character. Nor do I see him as lustful. Joseph did not need to risk it all with polygamy to have sex. Sex would have been easy to come by without it. He was not stupid. He did what he did because he believed that it was from god and many women he did become sealed to did so because they also received an independent witness that it was a true principle. Lucy Walker comes to mind:

While living in the Smith home, Lucy remembers: “In the year 1842 President Joseph Smith sought an interview with me, and said, ‘I have a message for you, I have been commanded of God to take another wife, and you are the woman.’ My astonishment knew no bounds. This announcement was indeed a thunderbolt to me...He asked me if I believed him to be a Prophet of God. ‘Most assuredly I do I replied.’...He fully Explained to me the principle of plural or celestial marriage. Said this principle was again to be restored for the benefit of the human family. That it would prove an everlasting blessing to my father’s house.”

“What do you have to Say?” Joseph asked. “Nothing” Lucy replied, “How could I speak, or what would I say?” Joseph encouraged her to pray: “tempted and tortured beyond endureance until life was not desirable. Oh that the grave would kindly receive me that I might find rest on the bosom of my dear mother...Why – Why Should I be chosen from among thy daughters, Father I am only a child in years and experience. No mother to council; no father near to tell me what to do, in this trying hour. Oh let this bitter cup pass. And thus I prayed in the agony of my soul.”

Joseph told Lucy that the marriage would have to be secret, but that he would acknowledge her as his wife, “beyond the Rocky Mountains”. He then gave Lucy an ultimatum, “It is a command of God to you. I will give you untill to-morrow to decide this matter. If you reject this message the gate will be closed forever against you.” Lucy said, “This arroused every drop of scotch in my veins...I felt at this moment that I was called to place myself upon the altar a liveing Sacrafice, perhaps to brook the world in disgrace and incur the displeasure and contempt of my youthful companions; all my dreams of happiness blown to the four winds, this was too much, the thought was unbearable.”

Now, bearing the burden of her own eternal salvation and that of her family, and with a deadline approaching, Lucy prayed more fervently for an answer. She couldn’t sleep the entire night. Just before dawn, and Joseph’s deadline, she “received a powerful and irristable testimony of the truth of the mariage covenant called 'Celestial or plural mariage'” and "I afterwards married Joseph as a plural wife and lived and cohabitated with him as such." Lucy married Joseph on May 1, 1843. At the time, Emma was in St. Louis buying supplies for the Nauvoo hotel. Lucy remembers, “Emma Smith was not present and she did not consent to the marriage; she did not know anything about it at all.” Of the relationship, Lucy said, “It was not a love matter, so to speak, in our affairs, -at least on my part it was not, but simply the giving up of myself as a sacrifice to establish that grand and glorious principle that God had revealed to the world.”


What to say about it all? Now of course the website that I pruned this from is not prolds and so, I don't consider this to be totally favorable. But it is the opinion of one person who experienced it. She did not say a negative word about Joseph Smith.

[_truth dancer]

Hi Why Me,

First harmony you need to put it all in perspective and what was transpiring at that time. Polygamy was a hot potato for sure. If it were to go public, all hell would have broken out with the neighboring nonmormon community and many lives would have been lost. Now do I wish that the saints at that time would have more courage? Sure. But one thing that I do know is this: if the secret would have come out among the gentiles, the Mormons would have been slaughtered by mobs. Were the gentile communities capable of it? You bet. Just look at what happened to the Indians. No mercy.

Hold the phone....

No offense but this is nonsense, unless of course you are saying that Joseph Smith actually had sex with all the girls and women he claimed were his?

Seems to me most apologists go with the "Joseph Smith didn't have sex with those women (and girls)" justification for his harem.

So, why in the world would anyone in the community have a problem with this, (let alone start slaughtering anyone) if all "the Principle" was was a little ceremony to ensure a friendship in the next life"? Who would care? Why would anything have to be a secret?

No one would have given the church a second thought and it all could have been above board and in the open, (still weird and kind of crazy but it would not have been an issue).

But if you are one who believes Joseph Smith did actually use these girls and women for his sexual pleasure, where is God in all this? He can help members find contacts in the grass but couldn't protect his chosen people as they were resuming an eternal principle necessary for exaltation? Seriously, this is silliness. I mean really Moses parted the Red Sea for Pete's sake, caused all sorts of plagues to kill the enemy, made Laban drunk so Nephi could kill him, and you don't think God could keep at bay a few outraged neighbors who refuse to tolerate immoral and indecent behavior towards girls and women?

As I frequently state, why would the God of the Universe require lies to bring forth truth? It makes no sense. Why would God want Joseph Smith to have sex with all these girls and women? Why? What was it about Joseph Smith's sex life that required God's extraordinary attention? Forget about the next life stuff, I am talking about the need for Joseph Smith to have sex with girls and women in this mortal life.

And, why if God was so incredibly desirous for Joseph Smith to have sex with all these girls and women, didn't he find a way to allow it to happen without all the drama, lies, secrecy, betrayal, pain, and cruelty? (I have to admit that there is something almost voyeuristic about a God who has such an obsession with the sex life of Joseph Smith that he sends an angel with a flaming sword).

Really, all the justifications for Joseph Smith's behavior are nearly identical to followers of other cults and religions who support the deviant or manipulative sexual escapades of their leaders. Funny, how religious and cult leaders get a free pass to use and abuse girls and women by their followers and devotees, yet condemn others who engage in the same behavior.


~td~


Nice post above Harmony.