Science vs. Faith

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_Samantabhadra
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Re: Science vs. Faith

Post by _Samantabhadra »

But if we are not allowed to make any negative judgements about the text based on the translation, then why should we be allowed to make positive judgements based on the translation?


I don't want to put any words in Aristotle's mouth, but my sense is that positive judgments are just as shaky as negative judgments. Certainly from my perspective I consider translations nothing more than a useful heuristic. It is very easy to mistake an artefact of translation, or something inserted by the translator, for what the text actually means. In the translation of a novel or a play this may not be a terribly big deal. In the translation of sacred scripture or meditative practice manuals, it can make a huge difference.

So when it comes to religious literature or studying religious traditions I think it is absolutely essential to learn the original languages. There is really no substitute or way around it. I translate from Tibetan to make material that would otherwise be quite obscure available to a wider audience, but I do not labor under the illusion that reading my translation is any kind of substitute for a direct encounter with the original language, particularly as mediated by the living tradition. Part of the reason why I qualify that by saying "as mediated by the living tradition" is exactly for the reasons Aristotle implies: that the living tradition can answer questions about the texts (meta-textual questions) that the texts themselves cannot answer. It is important to remember that the focus on texts above everything else is a relatively recent and almost exclusively Protestant phenomenon.
_Sethbag
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Re: Science vs. Faith

Post by _Sethbag »

This is a good example of the kind of apologetic arguments I and others have rejected and protested against. The whole idea that the Creator of the Entire Universe exists, and had human beings write down what he wanted us to know about him, but let them do it in such a way that it is jumbled together with a bunch of crap that would look obviously man-made, and then, to top it off, the real, honest-to-god truth contained in it is only really accessible to people who can read ancient Hebrew and Greek?

Really?

The Creator of the Entire Universe is unwilling, or unable, to give a normal human being, without the time, resources, or ability to learn ancient Hebrew or Greek the chance to understand what his Word really meant?

I reject the "anti-intellectual" tag to this line of critique. I'm not against learning, and I'm not against learning foreign languages, reading foreign literature in their native tongue (I've ordered quite a few books from Amazon.de specifically so I can read German literature in its native German), and so forth. What I reject is the idea that this is the way the Creator of the Entire Universe would get his message out.

At least, I reject the notion that the Creator of the Entire Universe would do it this way, while actually caring about and wanting all of his/her/its creations to have a fair shot at receiving and understanding his/her/its message. If God is in fact a capricious, self-aggrandizing, elitist cosmic asshole, then I suppose it's game on for this kind of stuff. That's not the kind of God I was raised to believe in, however, and I find it impossible to imagine why I should want to believe in, or worship, such a God if he/she/it did in fact exist.
Mormonism ceased being a compelling topic for me when I finally came to terms with its transformation from a personality cult into a combination of a real estate company, a SuperPac, and Westboro Baptist Church. - Kishkumen
_Sethbag
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Re: Science vs. Faith

Post by _Sethbag »

indian name guy wrote:So when it comes to religious literature or studying religious traditions I think it is absolutely essential to learn the original languages. There is really no substitute or way around it. I translate from Tibetan to make material that would otherwise be quite obscure available to a wider audience, but I do not labor under the illusion that reading my translation is any kind of substitute for a direct encounter with the original language, particularly as mediated by the living tradition.

Right. Because the rest of us 7 billion people in the world should find it patently obvious that the Creator of the Entire Universe has a crucial message for us all, but that he/she/it is unwilling, or unable to ensure that this message gets out to us in any form other than Tibetan. So the 7 billion of us who don't speak Tibetan had better get cracking.

And what of the guys who claim that in order to really understand the Will of the Creator, we should be learning ancient Greek and Hebrew? We're already up to 3 languages besides our native tongue that we really need to master in order to have a chance at knowing "The Truth".

And what about Sanskrit? Do we all need to learn that too? And what about ancient Chinese? Or, hell, let's throw Latin into the mix too, in case the ancient church fathers had something just as valid as the bronze-age goat farmers of the Middle East to say about God.

And who says we should overlook all the ancient African languages, or the tongues spoken by the as-yet uncontacted tribes of South America?

Combine this with the requirement to do college-level work in the Philosophy of Religion, and the Philosophy of Science, and also to read the state of the art in modern liberal Protestant Christian apologetics, and it seems that maybe .000000001% of the human population existing right now, to say nothing of the billions who have gone before, ever had the remotest chance of "getting it" when God poured out his Divine Intelligence on the world and turned life into a cosmic essay question that will damn us, or bless us, for all eternity.

Talk about setting us all up for failure. What a dick God is.
Mormonism ceased being a compelling topic for me when I finally came to terms with its transformation from a personality cult into a combination of a real estate company, a SuperPac, and Westboro Baptist Church. - Kishkumen
_MrStakhanovite
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Re: Science vs. Faith

Post by _MrStakhanovite »

So Seth, why not say:

I sort of came to the conclusion God doesn’t exist when I left the LDS Church. Since then, I’m not really interested in the Bible or any other religions.


No one would have a problem with that.
_Chap
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Re: Science vs. Faith

Post by _Chap »

MrStakhanovite wrote:So Seth, why not say:

I sort of came to the conclusion God doesn’t exist when I left the LDS Church. Since then, I’m not really interested in the Bible or any other religions.


No one would have a problem with that.


Possibly because he wanted to say what he did say, and was minimally disturbed by the prospect of someone else having a problem with it?
Zadok:
I did not have a faith crisis. I discovered that the Church was having a truth crisis.
Maksutov:
That's the problem with this supernatural stuff, it doesn't really solve anything. It's a placeholder for ignorance.
_MrStakhanovite
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Re: Science vs. Faith

Post by _MrStakhanovite »

Chap wrote:Possibly because he wanted to say what he did say, and was minimally disturbed by the prospect of someone else having a problem with it?


It’s funny how that works, someone wants to dismiss a specific scripture in the strongest possible terms, but also wants to avoid having to do all the work that would justify such a comment.
_beefcalf
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Re: Science vs. Faith

Post by _beefcalf »

Chap wrote:Possibly because he wanted to say what he did say, and was minimally disturbed by the prospect of someone else having a problem with it?


There exists the possibility that Seth, like me, actually became more interested in the Bible since coming to the conclusion that it does not actually represent the true word of a god.

I find it to be much more fascinating when considered as a purely cultural artifact than it ever was as repository of God's teachings.
eschew obfuscation

"I'll let you believers in on a little secret: not only is the LDS church not really true, it's obviously not true." -Sethbag
_MrStakhanovite
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Re: Science vs. Faith

Post by _MrStakhanovite »

beefcalf wrote:I find it to be much more fascinating when considered as a purely cultural artifact than it ever was as repository of God's teachings.


If that was true, you'd be hip deep in in historical and critical analysis. But you're not, and Seth just argued against ever having to do that.
_beefcalf
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Re: Science vs. Faith

Post by _beefcalf »

MrStakhanovite wrote:
Chap wrote:Possibly because he wanted to say what he did say, and was minimally disturbed by the prospect of someone else having a problem with it?


It’s funny how that works, someone wants to dismiss a specific scripture in the strongest possible terms, but also wants to avoid having to do all the work that would justify such a comment.


When the old testament (in KJV English) teaches me that a raped woman should marry her rapist, lest she suffer a sadistic execution... and that the rapist should pay a fee to the woman's father, was that an error in translation? How does the ancient Hebrew read? If I spent the requisite years learning ancient Hebrew, should I expect that these passages will seem more compassionate and sensible than they seem to me now?

Why do you keep insisting that those of us who criticize the Bible are doing so out of ignorance?
eschew obfuscation

"I'll let you believers in on a little secret: not only is the LDS church not really true, it's obviously not true." -Sethbag
_marg
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Re: Science vs. Faith

Post by _marg »

MrStakhanovite wrote:So Seth, why not say:

I sort of came to the conclusion God doesn’t exist when I left the LDS Church. Since then, I’m not really interested in the Bible or any other religions.


No one would have a problem with that.


Stak that sort of response or attitude you are suggesting, does not express the critical thinking entailed. This is a discussion board, afterall.

And most of the discussions on this board are not about whether or not a God exists. Most atheists on this board would say, that that is an issue that doesn't concern them..and they don't have problems in theists' beliefs in a God.
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