Family dies holding hands, praying

[_Tobin]

I think many of us share a profound belief in God and think this straw-man magic genie God in the sky that many of the posters here knock down and claim they don't believe in is so much hogwash. God is the God of nature and death is part of the natural world. For most Mormons, death is no big deal. Certainly we miss those that go on to the next world, but we know we'll see them again. It is just part of life and it really does not matter how long we are here. The point of this life is to merely exist. If we are blessed to marry, have children, have rewarding careers or interests, so much the better. But is not necessary in the ultimate scheme of things.

[_Chap]

I think many of us share a profound belief in God and think this straw-man magic genie God in the sky that many of the posters here knock down and claim they don't believe in is so much hogwash. God is the God of nature and death is part of the natural world. ...

Um, so that means your deity has always been OK about people dying, right?

That's very interesting, because the version of Christianity I was brought up in had this as one of its canonized scriptures:

Romans 5

12 Therefore, just as sin entered the world through one man, and death through sin, and in this way death came to all people, because all sinned—

13 To be sure, sin was in the world before the law was given, but sin is not charged against anyone’s account where there is no law. 14 Nevertheless, death reigned from the time of Adam to the time of Moses, even over those who did not sin by breaking a command, as did Adam, who is a pattern of the one to come.

15 But the gift is not like the trespass. For if the many died by the trespass of the one man, how much more did God’s grace and the gift that came by the grace of the one man, Jesus Christ, overflow to the many! 16 Nor can the gift of God be compared with the result of one man’s sin: The judgment followed one sin and brought condemnation, but the gift followed many trespasses and brought justification. 17 For if, by the trespass of the one man, death reigned through that one man, how much more will those who receive God’s abundant provision of grace and of the gift of righteousness reign in life through the one man, Jesus Christ!

18 Consequently, just as one trespass resulted in condemnation for all people, so also one righteous act resulted in justification and life for all people. 19 For just as through the disobedience of the one man the many were made sinners, so also through the obedience of the one man the many will be made righteous.

20 The law was brought in so that the trespass might increase. But where sin increased, grace increased all the more, 21 so that, just as sin reigned in death, so also grace might reign through righteousness to bring eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.

That and other passages rather suggest that death was not originally supposed to happen, but is a consequence of Adam's sin.

But your mileage may vary, and of course Paul did not mean what he seems to have said, since that would have been absurd according to the scientific knowledge of the 21st century.

[_Tobin]

Romans 5

12 Therefore, just as sin entered the world through one man, and death through sin, and in this way death came to all people, because all sinned—

13 To be sure, sin was in the world before the law was given, but sin is not charged against anyone’s account where there is no law. 14 Nevertheless, death reigned from the time of Adam to the time of Moses, even over those who did not sin by breaking a command, as did Adam, who is a pattern of the one to come.

15 But the gift is not like the trespass. For if the many died by the trespass of the one man, how much more did God’s grace and the gift that came by the grace of the one man, Jesus Christ, overflow to the many! 16 Nor can the gift of God be compared with the result of one man’s sin: The judgment followed one sin and brought condemnation, but the gift followed many trespasses and brought justification. 17 For if, by the trespass of the one man, death reigned through that one man, how much more will those who receive God’s abundant provision of grace and of the gift of righteousness reign in life through the one man, Jesus Christ!

18 Consequently, just as one trespass resulted in condemnation for all people, so also one righteous act resulted in justification and life for all people. 19 For just as through the disobedience of the one man the many were made sinners, so also through the obedience of the one man the many will be made righteous.

20 The law was brought in so that the trespass might increase. But where sin increased, grace increased all the more, 21 so that, just as sin reigned in death, so also grace might reign through righteousness to bring eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.

If God hadn't meant for man to fall, then he wouldn't have put the tree of knowledge of good and evil in the garden to begin with.

[_consiglieri]

I haven't posted yet on this thread, but will do so quickly to add that I believe that God does intervene in the affairs of humankind, but only on very, very rare occasions.

I sometimes think God follows his own version of the Prime Directive.

Beam me up!

--Consiglieri

ETA--And sometimes when God does intervene, it may be over something as insignificant as sparing the life of a kitty cat. It may be God does not place human life on a higher plane when it comes to his choice of interventions.

[_Hoops]

It may be God does not place human life on a higher plane when it comes to his choice of interventions.

That may be (but I don't think so). But biblically, in my opinion, He places humans above everything else.

[_Ceeboo]

But biblically, in my opinion, He places humans above everything else.

Without question or exception!


My name is Ceeboo and I approve this message.

Peace,
Ceeboo

[_Hoops]

That and other passages rather suggest that death was not originally supposed to happen, but is a consequence of Adam's sin.

That's exactly what it means.

But your mileage may vary, and of course Paul did not mean what he seems to have said, since that would have been absurd according to the scientific knowledge of the 21st century.

More dangerous than interpreting the Bible anachronistically is taking biblical passages in isolation - but only marginally so.

[_Nightlion]

You run a smear campaign against a being you deny even exists.
We will have to construct a NEW pigeon hole to put that behavior in.
The Mormon Tumbler pigeon hole. How's that?

Wrong. I want people to stop believing in such a silly concept as the Mormon god. If your god is the universe, natural law, etc., knock yourself out. However, the world would be a better place if fewer people believed in the cosmic terrorist that is Elohim/Yaweh.

You have taken a comic book look at God and dismissed him with arrogant prejudice.
To an ant how can we be anything but a terror if they are able to be aware of us at all?
I have had forty years of experience with my Mormon God. He is more real than the air I breathe and the light by which I can see. What could be more absurd to me than for you or anyone else to dismiss him as a terrorist? You are imbalanced in rationale. A terrorist is not going to suffer to enable everyone else to escape. A terrorist is not going to hold the world in spin while people like you inhabit the earth and thrive yet spouting vile blasphemies against him.

At heart you are being selfish. Like the one third that said no in the beginning. Obviously they had no regard for God and his will and could not care less for the common good of the universe. They only wanted to preserve and enhance what ever advantage they owned.
This world endorses your advantage to get away with evil speaking against the Most High God.

What is this world for other than to prove those who came along for the ride, out of fearfulness, were, at heart, as selfish as any of the fallen devils, only they did not dare rebel. To campaign for God hate now is how you assuage your fears against the reality of a great big hit coming at you. That is what compels devils to recruit as many as possible before the time when they will suffer their great big hit. Like hiding behind the skirts of as many as possible.

[_Drifting]

I haven't posted yet on this thread, but will do so quickly to add that I believe that God does intervene in the affairs of humankind, but only on very, very rare occasions.

I sometimes think God follows his own version of the Prime Directive.

Beam me up!

--Consiglieri

ETA--And sometimes when God does intervene, it may be over something as insignificant as sparing the life of a kitty cat. It may be God does not place human life on a higher plane when it comes to his choice of interventions.

Hi consig,

Can you point to a specific incidence when you believe God has intervened in this life (during our lifetime)?

[_Chap]

That and other passages rather suggest that death was not originally supposed to happen, but is a consequence of Adam's sin.

That's exactly what it means.

I am glad you agree.

But your mileage may vary, and of course Paul did not mean what he seems to have said, since that would have been absurd according to the scientific knowledge of the 21st century.

More dangerous than interpreting the Bible anachronistically is taking biblical passages in isolation - but only marginally so.

I think you have failed to notice that I am addressing Tobin in my comment on the Romans passage. That way of saying the opposite of what one means is, I believe, known as 'irony'.