Kinderhook vs the Papyri

[_Tobin]

...

thews, Joseph Smith main thesis is there is really a God. You can speak with God and learn the truth for yourself. You can point out the idiosyncrasies of Joseph Smith all day long. I don't care. It is completely unimportant. The message is what matters. If you wish to know God, speak with God with earnest. If you don't, believe whatever you wish. That is all Mormonism is about. If believing or disbelieving in the Book of Abraham gets you there, great.

[_Cylon]

...

thews, Joseph Smith main thesis is there is really a God. You can speak with God and learn the truth for yourself. You can point out the idiosyncrasies of Joseph Smith all day long. I don't care. It is completely unimportant. The message is what matters. If you wish to know God, speak with God with earnest. If you don't, believe whatever you wish. That is all Mormonism is about. If believing or disbelieving in the Book of Abraham gets you there, great.

You know what, Tobin, I like your approach way better than the "my way or the highway" attitude so many apologists take. You're cool in my book, for what it's worth.

[_Themis]

Ok, see the underline part. That is you stating Joseph Smith was God's sock puppet. I have not avoided the question. I have addressed your premise and you have disregarded it again and again.

Let me help you out.http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sockpuppet_%28Internet%29
Nothing I have said fits this.

Let me explain it again to you. Joseph Smith was a human being. Human beings make mistakes. We have biases, make bad assumptions, and so on. Joseph Smith was as capable as we are at doing that.

We are aware he is human and makes mistakes. What we are questioning is the reasonableness of making such a stupid mistake you assert he did to such a large scale that it really is not reasonable for reasons already given.

Joseph Smith could not read Egyptain Hieroglyphics. What he saw was the original record of Abraham. Now pay attention, Joseph Smith did not think to ask the Lord about the papyri in front of him and simply assumed it was written by Abraham like the Gold Plates had been written by the Nephites.

BS. CFR that Joseph did not ask God for a translation which is really what you are trying to assert. The evidence just does not support this assertion, and many have shown you some of that evidence. Yours is a made up assertion.

Now, I'll repeat a few things with you. Joseph Smith, despite your continued annoying assertion otherwise that he was simply God's sock puppet (and therefore God was driving this - Joseph Smith was just along for the ride), was a human being with human failings like bias, lack of knowledge, the ability to make poor assumptions and so forth. The translation of the papyri was not something God had commanded Joseph Smith to translate. This is something he decided he needed to do. Since, again, he wasn't God's sock puppet, he needed to ask the questions and get understanding from God about this. Clearly, there were things he did not fully didn't comprehend. That is understandable because he was a human being, and NOT God's sock puppet, and he had to ask the Lord the questions and obtain the understanding from the Lord himself.

You are making stuff up. Joseph again was seeking a translation from God, and made the assertions that this is what God did. The catalyst theory is dumb for God to give him something other then what he is seeking and not at least correct him so as not to make a stupid mistake on both parts. It's obvious to anyone who doesn't need to believe this crap.

Let's apply your little theory to you Themis. You don't believe in God (which is clearly false). By your admission, God is deceiving you because even though he exists, he's not showing himself to you. According to you, it is God's job to come down right now and set you right. You are being completely absurd (and yes, I realize you have no idea how absurd you are being).

If you are going to apply the theory to me, at least apply it instead of saying something else not even related tom my post. In my example if I am person B I would be deceiving or misleading person A if I give him another record of Abraham and let him think I translated his document. There really is no way to get around how silly the catalyst theory is without making both parties into idiots.

[_Tobin]

...

Believe whatever you want to believe. There is no way I can convinced you otherwise. I believe Joseph Smith was merely a man that was inspired of God. God didn't run him like a sock puppet. God didn't step in and correct him everytime he made a mistake. Joseph Smith had to learn things on his own and ask the Lord for guidance instead. Now, again, if you believe the scriptures and the prophets when they say there is a really a God, then please seek and speak with that God. If you do not, that is entirely up to you.

[_Themis]

Believe whatever you want to believe.

You can believe what ever you want to, even if it doesn't make any sense.

There is no way I can convinced you otherwise.

You could if you had evidence or a reasonable argument.

I believe Joseph Smith was merely a man that was inspired of God.

A poor and in my opinion a dishonest apologetic. No one is saying he has to be perfect. The problem is it is not realistic to think Joseph would be making it up to the extent you suggest and not ask God, and worse that God would not correct something of this magnitude. The only reason you argue for it is it is all you have.

God didn't run him like a sock puppet.

A poor and in my opinion a dishonest apologetic. No one suggest he is.

God didn't step in and correct him everytime he made a mistake.

A poor and in my opinion a dishonest apologetic. No one is suggesting God does, but that doesn't mean he never would, or especially that he should stay quiet and mislead Joseph in the process.

Joseph Smith had to learn things on his own and ask the Lord for guidance instead.

A poor and in my opinion a dishonest apologetic. No one is suggesting he didn't have to learn on his own, and the last part is what Joseph would do with something he knows he can't know what it is unless he is a total idiot. I just don't buy into Joseph being that dumb like you need to.

Now, again, if you believe the scriptures and the prophets when they say there is a really a God, then please seek and speak with that God. If you do not, that is entirely up to you.

Been there done that.

[_Tobin]

A poor and in my opinion a dishonest apologetic.

Themis, I'm the not the one being dishonest. We'll just have to agree to disagree. We'll see which one if us is correct after we die. I wish you the best of luck.

[_Themis]

A poor and in my opinion a dishonest apologetic.

Themis, I'm the not the one being dishonest. We'll just have to agree to disagree. We'll see which one if us is correct after we die. I wish you the best of luck.

You have continue to make this assertion about it even though you have been corrected multiple times. I also notice you don't want to back up your assertion that Joseph wasn't seeking a translation of the papyri. I think you are a nice guy even if we don't agree, so I do hope the best for you in your life.

[_Drifting]

Tobin,
If God revealed the Book of Abraham independently of the papyrus, then
a) ...what purpose did the papyrus serve that, say, a rock or a tree or a blot of mustard could not?

It was the impetus that sparked Joseph Smith interest.

b) ...why was Joseph Smith so convinced that he was translating from the papyrus?

Because the Lord revealed Abraham's original writings and Joseph Smith simply assumed that since the papyri were ancient writings (like the Gold Plates), that what was revealed was actually contained in them.

c) ...who is the King in Facsimile 3?

The Facsimiles are Egyptian. Joseph Smith's speculations are wrong.

So...
Joseph Smith was wrong about the Facsimilies, wrong about Abrahams hand writing in the papyrus, but right in the writing...

Makes you wonder why today's Prophet hasn't amended the intro to the Book of Abraham or removed the Facsimilies from the canon. Why do you suppose that is Tobin?

[_thews]

...

thews, Joseph Smith main thesis is there is really a God.

I realize this, but it's not just "a" God, it's many Gods.

You can speak with God and learn the truth for yourself.

I believe in God Tobin, and I don't believe God "speaks" to anyone.

You can point out the idiosyncrasies of Joseph Smith all day long. I don't care. It is completely unimportant.

To you, doctrine based on a lie is unimportant... I get that. At least you have the stones to admit Joseph Smith didn't translate the Book of Abraham correctly without resorting to "what if" scenarios.

The message is what matters. If you wish to know God, speak with God with earnest. If you don't, believe whatever you wish. That is all Mormonism is about.

Not really. Mormonism is about the truth claims and doctrine of Joseph Smith.

If believing or disbelieving in the Book of Abraham gets you there, great.

And I would counter that if believing in truth claims you know to be false gets you there, then good for you. Truth holds the answer Tobin...again, thanks for acknowledging the facts regarding the truth about the Book of Abraham; I give you props for that.