Laban's death defies logic and reality

[_Themis]

Gordon,

I have more respect for you being open and honest about your experiences. Many here don't.

[_Sethbag]

Sethbag: Did you see this thread: http://mormondiscussions.com/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=25020&p=618636#p618636

Here is my favorite quote from mfbukowski from that thread: "Moroni 10:4 is not about epistemology, it is about what gives your life meaning."

Does that clear everything up for you?

Yeah. I remember that thread. I read parts of it, but the BS got too deep for me to stomach to its final conclusion.

But let's combine what you just pointed to with the OP of this thread, and come up with the following:

"Laban's death was justified because his murder so Nephi could take his property gives my life meaning."

What do you think?

[_Spektical]

The feelings you get, no matter how powerful or serene, do not unambiguously state some proposition; you are left to attach some significance to them. This reflective and interpretive process is what undercuts your claims to knowledge. The best you can claim is faith/belief, not knowledge.

I can claim knowledge for myself...I know lot's of things about myself that I can't prove to you. You just don't agree with that. I could have a personal visitation, but I can't prove that to you, either.

You're missing the point. The "knowledge" you're claiming is simply the occurrence of some body sensation. Anything beyond that is your interpretation of that experience, or the significance you attach to it. So if your basis for claiming "knowledge" that the Book of Mormon is true is that one day when you were praying about it, and you had a unique sensation, then your claim is intellectually dishonest. All you truly *know* is that you prayed, thought about something, and then had a sensation of some sort. The steps you took to obtain that "knowledge" are not even remotely on the same level as the typical ways people obtain knowledge. Your "knowledge" of the Book of Mormon is not the same as my "knowledge" that I'm sitting in a chair, or that my air conditioner just turned on, or that the sun is visible, etc. When you make claims to "knowledge," that is the type of "knowing" that people think of. I think that's what I and others find objectionable about your posts. If you were honest (and humble) enough to admit that what you have is not knowledge, but mere belief, then I doubt you'd get as much push back.

Besides, do you not agree that one can only "know" something that is true? What if someone tells you that they have prayed to God, experienced your Vapor-Rub sensation, and now they know that the Pope is God's mouthpiece on the earth today. Unless you already agree with that proposition, chances are you would be like us: skeptical that their conclusion does not follow from their premises.

Again, is there any way for you to know (or show) that these experiences are all coming from God, rather than from a similar/shared biological disposition?

Faith is a big part of it, but it's not my job to prove it to you.

See, now that's more like it. Faith is not only a big part of it--it's all of it. What you have is faith, not knowledge.

[_Gordon]

Is there anything that Drifting could write in a post on this board that would persuade you that he was after all recounting and interpreting his own experience correctly, even if his conclusions contradict your own?

Yes, but it would take a whole heck of alot more than words posted on an anonymous message board.

[_Gordon]

I know you want my experience to be something other than receiving a witness from the Holy Ghost that the Book of Mormon was a fake. But it was what it was. Following the 'burning in the bosom' my mind gained peace and my soul soared. I experienced a spiritual high, a relief from God that I had finally worked it out. I repeat, I complied fully with the criteria to be worthy of such a witness.

Now stop trying to reframe my experience and deal with it.

I don't have to 'deal' with your conclusion anymore than you do mine. You experienced something that both you and I perceive as real, but in my own personal experience, Satan leaves me alone, for a while, when I submit...

[_Gordon]

If I had written exactly the same post but the outcome was the Church being true, Gordon would have wholeheartedly agreed that I had experienced a witness from the Holy Ghost.

In my personal experience, answers come with action (fruits)...so, no, your generalization doesn't apply.

[_Gordon]

I'm sure it was somehow much more dignified and genuine.

Read HoC.

[_Gordon]

Actually, if god ignored you for 10 years of pleading and then only answered you when you asked if it was a fraud I think that makes him an ass.

I actually agree with you, here...this has been a struggle of mine.

[_Gordon]

[So all those times over a decade that Drifting was asking the positive proposition, no response. The first time he asks it properly per Moroni 10:4-5, as a negative proposition, he gets a response. The negative proposition is confirmed, that LDS claims are not true.

The question is not a negative proposition...please confirm with an english teacher.

So burning bosom can be either a 'yes' or a 'no' answer, right? Depends on if it is like a hollow, 'Vapor Rub' sensation. Funny, D&C 9:9 says if the answer is itself negative, you'll get a stupor of thought and forgetfulness. But that's not what Drifting has described at all.

There are numerous forms of an answer, and D&C 9:9 is merely one.

So if you perceive the emotional response to be positive more than sterile, medicinal in nature, then that is a 'LDS-is-true' answer. But if it is more sterile, medicinal (Vapor Rub-ish), then that is to the effect that the answer to the question, as framed, is itself negative.

It's more than the 'medicinal' nature of the response (negative), or not. It also comes with the words to the mind, and the corresponding circumstances regarding the witness.

This all boils down to being meaningless. Nonanswers. It's an emotion that the person experiencing chooses to interpret however. And for which interpretation, you've chosen what LDS people tell you how you should do so. You have put your 'faith' in the arm of their flesh. Which is itself a contradiction of the Book of Mormon. Oh, well. Party on.

I don't rely on any preconceived answer.

[_Gordon]

Using thermometer.
Developed by scientists.

I was speaking internally, for yourself.