Extraordinary Claims by Grant Palmer

[_Spanner]

The anecdote about David O. McKay has been taken off the Mormonthink page for this episode.

What I think Grant could have made more salient was that he was reporting the views of a person going through a faith crisis, and like many of us in the same situation, the seventy may well be in distress to some degree, and he is trying to understand and reinterpret his environment the best he can. That seems to be why he is meeting Grant after all.

I do think Grant made it quite clear from the context that he was reporting the opinions of the GA, for example he asked for clarity as to how the guy 'knew' these things, and the guy was upfront that he was giving an assessment.

As opposed to the picture Why Me seems to have, the GA describes the apostles taking a period of years to 'discover' that the foundational claims of the church are false. Possibly it takes that long to realise that, like Santa, Jesus is not going to appear no matter how faithful you are. I imagine Seventies keep a close eye on new apostles for just such signs of epiphanies, and see only disillusionment.

[_solomarineris]

Sandra Tanner has validated these statements from Grant:

http://journeyofloyaldissent.wordpress. ... comment-23

Yea, Sandra Tanner also validated the existence of Jesus, everyday in her life.

[_Gadianton]

I read Twede's blog post and some of it makes the story a little more intriguing, like, OK, you get a million dollar line of credit and whatever else, but the NDA can force full repayment (plus interest I imagine) and that could be a hefty sum, with no career opportunities available to earn the money. This definitely helps the plotline, but not sure it can rescue it. If for some reason it were needed or inevitable for foundational claims to be rejected once inside the board room, then it would make far more sense to look for lower-tier leaders who are opportunists and not dyed-in-the-wool believers to whom the Book of Mormon, for instance, means everything. For me, it seems the rising generation are business types who don't really care about the scriptures anyway. As time goes on, the ratio of TBM GA's vs. pragmatist GAs is slowly shifting to pragmatist.

For those of us who merely served a mission, we could see how the business/sales side of the Church gets in the way of the religion, it would seem to me that the higher one goes up the ranks, it would be more of this same kind of stuff, and by the time one gets to the level of apostle, expectations have been properly adjusted for what goes on behind the curtain -- nothin' very interesting.

I have no problem believing that GBH or Monson are/were non-believers or "truth bracketers" at some level. But was ETB? And outright conversations acknowledging the falsity of the Church? What's the point of that? Especially if it isn't happening at all on the slightly lower tiers. There just can't be a rigid line that gets crossed precisely at the apostle level that is never crossed lower than this.

Anyway, one thought is that when this "blows up", it could lead to a victory for the SCMC. We've seen the SCMC beaten back, along with the apologists feeding it information, during the elections as heavy-handed church autocrats were causing PR nightmares. But now? When the lid blows, it will be the perfect opportunity for the "KGB" to argue internally for "increased security measures" and likewise for the apologists to reaffirm their usefulness as spies in the field who relish the opportunity to turn in doubting brothers and sisters to central command.

[_sock puppet]

For me, it seems the rising generation are business types who don't really care about the scriptures anyway. As time goes on, the ratio of TBM GA's vs. pragmatist GAs is slowly shifting to pragmatist.

LDS Inc.

[_kairos]

Oh no!

Someone has commented that COJCOLDS is TO BIG TO FAIL!

if it goes down, the entire economy of utah goes down the toilet.

Someone get ben bernake on the line and recall tim geither please- this is HOT!


and crank up the hygiene kit output and put armed guards around welfare square -okay they are already there, so forget it!

[_why me]

As opposed to the picture Why Me seems to have, the GA describes the apostles taking a period of years to 'discover' that the foundational claims of the church are false. Possibly it takes that long to realise that, like Santa, Jesus is not going to appear no matter how faithful you are. I imagine Seventies keep a close eye on new apostles for just such signs of epiphanies, and see only disillusionment.

The million dollar payout is farfetched. Also, with faith there is doubt. But I had the impression that Grant is saying that the apostles know that the church is false and when a newbie is called to the 12, they are told and offered a million to keep their mouths shut. Now the only way a person in that position can know that the church is false is by seeing conclusive proof that it is. This could be a rough draft of the Book of Mormon in Joseph's or Sidney's hand. An April Fool's note from Joseph claiming that it was all an April Fool's joke. Or something else.

The original twelve apostles needed a resurrection and a return to convince them of the truth claims. They had doubts. Having doubts is no big deal.

[_Polygamy-Porter]

Sandra Tanner has validated these statements from Grant:

http://journeyofloyaldissent.wordpress. ... comment-23

Yea, Sandra Tanner also validated the existence of Jesus, everyday in her life.

Sorry, your point was what?

[_honorentheos]

But I could see how a person who worked with the Q12 could come away thinking they weren't particularly believing followers of Christ.

But that is not the claim. The claim is that they know the church is false and a select group of them buy new apostles and their silence when they are told the truth.

When I read the original quote (which is really all I've read other than this thread), I was struck by how jaded the GA seemed to be regarding the apostles. Do I think he is correct that they do not actually believe in the church in some nominal way? I'd be surprised if that were true.

But, as Gadianton says above, I suspect the majority of them are busily engaged in keeping the chruch going which requires a good company man with a company man's attitude. I could see how someone who expected them to be somehow spiritually elite might become convinced they are not believing members. The GA is quoted as saying they never said they didn't believe to him. My comment was that I've been left with a relatively negative impression of a few members of the quorum after meeting them and speaking with them. Certainly nothing indicated they were somehow special witnesses of Christ. Uchtdorf is the only exception from my own personal experience. And he wasn't an apostle at the time.

[_Themis]

The million dollar payout is farfetched.

Payout for silence I would agree, but I must have missed where Grant says the GA says this. He does say it and other factors become a hindrance in the going public. Since you already agree a million is not very much money then I see no reason why you would think it unlikely they get a lump sum of money when they become an apostle.

Also, with faith there is doubt.

The church doesn't teach this, and the definition for the words have them as polar opposites.

But I had the impression that Grant is saying that the apostles know that the church is false and when a newbie is called to the 12, they are told and offered a million to keep their mouths shut.

I think you see what you want to see, but it's not Grant saying it, but Grant relating in his own words what he thinks the GA is saying.

Now the only way a person in that position can know that the church is false is by seeing conclusive proof that it is. This could be a rough draft of the Book of Mormon in Joseph's or Sidney's hand. An April Fool's note from Joseph claiming that it was all an April Fool's joke. Or something else.

We don't have any evidence of what is going on here. Even what we get from Grant about what he thinks the GA is saying doesn't have any reason why they would stop believing. He doesn't even have any interactions with them saying anything direct. I think he is putting on his own interpretations based on little evidence and his own bias.

The original twelve apostles needed a resurrection and a return to convince them of the truth claims. They had doubts. Having doubts is no big deal.

The one thing I don't see has been discussed here is the power of the mind to delude itself into believing things against mountains of evidence. We see this with a young earth and global flood. These guys didn't get there without having done a lot of work, dedication and belief. Deluding themselves as needed seems the most likely scenario for most when confronted with uncomfortable facts. The only implausible thing I find in his story of these experiences is all the 15 being unbelievers. It's also easy to see that the GA has no real evidence and is giving an opinion based on so little.

If they really were all unbelievers I doubt they would have been so resistant to change within the church on issue like polygamy, blacks, and gays. I wouldn't doubt women may have the priesthood now if they really all didn't believe for a long time.

[_Themis]

I could see how someone who expected them to be somehow spiritually elite might become convinced they are not believing members.

I recall hearing that working in the COB was not a good place to keep a testimony.