Ray A: The Gandhi of Internet Mormonism?

[_Gadianton]

If I were to discover that Ray is a deliberate and brazen liar, yes, it would change my assessment of him.

Fair enough. Though I think you and I will disagree on what constitutes a "brazen liar". In private correspondence when an argument occurs and tempers flair a bit, and one person says, "you called me a &#$^#" and the other guy says, "I did NOT call you a *()*()) you dirty *#&$^#" and both are known to use words like "*&$^#^" freely though perhaps not "&#$^#" specifically, and then there's a whole dispute over whether the correspondence should have been posted in the first place, I think we're strictly in "white lie" territory. It won't really hurt my opinion of Scratch if he lied, though I will publicly rebuke him for it as I said. It will also not hurt my opinion of Ray. Given his consistent inability to respond to posts on point and given that he gets issues confused (case in point, his call for me to PM Scratch confused two entirely separate and distinct comments I'd made, I could make a list of 10 such issues easily, from this thread alone) I can see him thinking "honestly" something that wasn't necessarily so. In fact, I'd trade a lie here and there for an on-target response.

That being said, though, I have considerable confidence, from my knowledge of Ray, that he is not a liar. His honesty is one of his most striking qualities.

Uh yeah. I've always wondered about what there is to admire about absolute brutally brute honesty, with implicating threats and so on. But we are free to admire different things.

I genuinely have no idea why he hates me so implacably.

Did he ever say he hates you? you infer that based on what he's written, but it's possible for others to infer that you hate him based on what you've written to (without conceding who has or hasn't the ultimate moral high ground in your arguments).

[_Gadianton]

as you find no interest in Ray's antics and violent humor?

Now this is a laugh. "Violent humour". Do you PC-ites have any thing else to complain about? Is wanting all the General Authorities dead, "violent humour"? Good grief. Which number drink are you on, Gad - 26?

Do you have anything to complain about, other than an allegedly altered PM, one that cut cuss words out, and that took place under heated tempers? Are we really supposed to think that consistent foul language used to attack an opponent along with anger-driven threats, suggestions that "anti-Mormons" (which includes people like Beastie and Shades according to you) will bring the next holocaust, and then jokes laced with violence against debate opponents as "nothing" and just part of good 'old Ray, flaws and all, but an altered PM by Scratch (if he's guilty) where a couple cuss words were taken out and nothing else, after his request for privacy had been betrayed, rings the death knell for the destruction of Scratch's credibility?

Like I said before, show me the posts from my associates expressing the wish for all the General Authorities to be dead and I'll happily condemn it.

[_The Nehor]

as you find no interest in Ray's antics and violent humor?

Now this is a laugh. "Violent humour". Do you PC-ites have any thing else to complain about? Is wanting all the General Authorities dead, "violent humour"? Good grief. Which number drink are you on, Gad - 26?

Still waiting, Ray. My "version" of the message is in Dr. Shades's InBox right now. You gonna send yours, or are you going to apologize to me for making a false accusation?

Ummm....this is as good as no proof. It's a cut and paste....i.e. it can be altered. Either of you could do it. I still suggest a screenshot of inboxes with the timestamp.

[_beastie]

Do you have anything to complain about, other than an allegedly altered PM, one that cut cuss words out, and that took place under heated tempers? Are we really supposed to think that consistent foul language used to attack an opponent along with anger-driven threats, suggestions that "anti-Mormons" (which includes people like Beastie and Shades according to you) will bring the next holocaust, and then jokes laced with violence against debate opponents as "nothing" and just part of good 'old Ray, flaws and all, but an altered PM by Scratch (if he's guilty) where a couple cuss words were taken out and nothing else, after his request for privacy had been betrayed, rings the death knell for the destruction of Scratch's credibility?

Besides which, we already know Ray has openly lied about at least one thing. Even aside from his PM to scratch, which he hasn't denied, he's repeatedly said he doesn't share private messages.

So I guess we just now wait for Daniel's condemnations? Threatening to kill missionaries doesn't earn it, but by god, lying will.

[_Ray A]

Still waiting, Ray. My "version" of the message is in Dr. Shades's InBox right now. You gonna send yours, or are you going to apologize to me for making a false accusation?

You have some nerve. You'll get an apology from me after the Jews apologise to Hitler.

[_beastie]

You have some nerve. You'll get an apology from me after the Jews apologise to Hitler.

This coming from the guy that said this:

If some dork speaks about "killing Mormon missionaries", I do not care a fig if anyone else sees this as merely words. I take this very seriously. And to all the little minds who think this thread has no substance - THINK AGAIN! And to all of you who quote Jesus, remember that out of the mouth come blasphemies, threats, and bile, which reflect the intentions of the heart. This is a verbal hatred that could one day turn to physical violence. And the more you speak and publish your BILE, the more the sick minds will be encouraged.

While neglecting to mention he was just such a dork, and oh, by the way, it was "merely words" which no one should take seriously.

Yeah, someone around here's got quite a bit of nerve.

[_Ray A]

Yeah, someone around here's got quite a bit of nerve.

You have no more credibility than Scratch. Why Me made an observation on MAD which applies to both of you:

The Internet critic is [a] hardboiled poster who seems to know how to manipulate the dialogue through strawmen galore.

You have become the classic strawwoman.

[_Mister Scratch]

as you find no interest in Ray's antics and violent humor?

Now this is a laugh. "Violent humour". Do you PC-ites have any thing else to complain about? Is wanting all the General Authorities dead, "violent humour"? Good grief. Which number drink are you on, Gad - 26?

Still waiting, Ray. My "version" of the message is in Dr. Shades's InBox right now. You gonna send yours, or are you going to apologize to me for making a false accusation?

Ummm....this is as good as no proof. It's a cut and paste....I.e. it can be altered. Either of you could do it. I still suggest a screenshot of inboxes with the timestamp.

Are screenshots not alterable? In any case, why not go one step at a time? After Ray submits his version to Dr. Shades, we can then move on to screen shots. I am totally fine with this.

by the way, Nehor, since we are on the subject of proof, I think I am going to need videotaped evidence that your friend did not find Hamblin's diatribe offensive, since you have been known to lie about things, such as your Belial sockpuppet. Also, as a sidenote: isn't it kind of ironic for a TBM such as yourself to be demanding physical evidence? Do you require the same kinds of evidence for the truth claims of the Church?

[_Mister Scratch]

Yeah, someone around here's got quite a bit of nerve.

You have no more credibility than Scratch. Why Me made an observation on MAD which applies to both of you:

The Internet critic is [a] hardboiled poster who seems to know how to manipulate the dialogue through strawmen galore.

You have become the classic strawwoman.

Hey, Big Mouth---you gonna send that on over to Shades, or what?

[_beastie]

How in the WORLD are my comments a strawman argument?