Dynasitc Marriages-Doctrinal Question

[_charity]

Hey Harmony,

their leader was killed
they were driven from their homes in the middle of the winter
they suffered deprivation and hunger, froze, lost their spouses and their children
they were driven into the wilderness
they died in huge numbers on the way
they were tricked into accepting the Abomination
their women shouldered the burden and the shame; their men shouldered the sin
they lost everything, including their dignity

Yeah, that sounds like they were really blessed.

Once they got rid of the Abomination, the blessings returned, they flourished, they prospered.

God will not be mocked.

I've been pondering this Harmony... I truly had not ever really thought of this, after all these years, this is a new idea to contemplate.

It would be MUCH easier to believe in the LDS church if one looked upon it from this perspective. It does seem to be very true that once the polygamy nonsense was removed, the church was blessed.

I do not believe in the LDS church however, I do believe that the result of goodness, is well, goodness. And the consequences of unhealthy behavior is unhealthiness.

:-)

~dancer~

Your history is all wrong here. Joseph Smith was murdered in 1844.

That would be the first statement, charity. The one that reads "their leader was killed".

The Church moved away from the source of persecution, and outside the rule of the United States, which failed miserably in extending the protections of the Constituition to the Saints.

The members were thrown out of their homes and into a nasty winter, which is what is covered in the second statement, "they were driven from their homes in the middle of the winter". Why? Because William Law was right; Joseph and the other leaders had multiple wives and the surrounding communities would NOT allow that to live in their midst. The general rank and file, who had been repeatedly lied to from the pulpit and told that Joseph only had Emma to wife and the other leaders only had one wife also, were ALSO thrown out into the winter weather. It wasn't just the leaders who were tossed out; it was virtually everyone. Only a few stayed behind.

For 40 years, when left alone, the Church prospered. greatly.

You left out a few things. Let me help you:

they suffered deprivation and hunger, froze, lost their spouses and their children
they were driven into the wilderness
they died in huge numbers on the way
they were tricked into accepting the Abomination
their women shouldered the burden and the shame; their men shouldered the sin
they lost everything, including their dignity

They spread throughout the intermountain west, with numerous prosperous settlements.

Numerous? Prosperous? Well, maybe everything owned by Brigham prospered, but that isn't an accurate statement for the rank and file.

The Church , in the 40 years from 1850 to 1890 more than tripled in membership. The growth rates was 369%.

What's that got to do with deprivation, starvation, or the Abomination?

In the 40 years following the Manifesto, when according to you the Church should have "blossomed" freed from the horrible abomination of polygamy, the growth rate was slightly lower than that, at 355%.

Actually, I was thinking more in term of today, but the same still applies. After the Abomination was removed, the Saints started to prosper, to today when the LDS church is one of the richest per capita on the planet.

Sorry ladies. Your theory that polygamy was a terrible burden on the Church just won't wash.

http://www.mormonwiki.org/Population_and_growth_rate

*sigh* charity, surely you understand that the deprivation, starvation, and death that was a direct result of being thrown out of Nauvoo in the middle of the winter, the appalling conditions at Winter Quarters, the horrendous experience of the trek west has nothing to do with population and growth rates in 1890. Don't you? Polygamy was one of the main reasons the Saints were forced out of Nauvoo; the rank and file members had nothing to do with that, but they were forced out along with the ones who were deeply involved and lying about it. Try as you may, there is no way around that. Calling that period of time a "blessing" is despicable.

God will not be mocked. Joseph made up Sec 132 and God will not be mocked. He withdrew his protecting hand and the Saints were attacked, bloodied, and thrown out into the winter, their homes destroyed, their children dying on the trail. And for what... a lie.

Harmony, you really have a set of double standards. Jesus was tortured and exectued. That is evidence that God was angry with Him? The Apostles were all killed, except for one. The early Christians suffered great persecutions, and multiudes of them died. I guess you think God didn't like them.

Harmony, you have a very strange way of attributing blame. Suppose your married neighbor had a stream of women in and out of his bedroom, with his wife and children in the house, would you burn his house down, throw the wife and children out in the street in winter? And think you were justified in your actions because that man was miserably treating his family? Surely, you are not offering that up as a justification for the crimes committed against the Saints by their neighbors?

And you have an abysmal lack kof knowledge of the history of the Saints in the Valley. How they became prosperous and thrived where they were allowed religious freedom.

And your have an abysmal lack of knowledge of the history of all people. How about this little story of starvatin, privation, and death? This is what happened to the famous Mayflower company. During the first winter, almost 50% of the original colonists died. Of the original 104, only 53 people were alive in November 1621 for that much storied first Thanksgiving. 14 out of the 18 adult females died during the first winter. I guess God was mocked because they were monogamous and He withdrew His protection?

I know what drives your agenda. You hate the idea of plural marriage. And you will twist any fact you can find to fit your agenda. That you cannot see the growth of the Church before and after the Manifesto as being essentially the same shows that you cannot objectively evaluate evidence.

[_ludwigm]

...
Is it possible to detect the HG?

Yes, it is possible to detect the Holy Ghost. There are millions of witnesses to it.

Who get thousands of conflicting confirmation.

And, please don't forget, that witnesses have said it . The others may or may not believe them.
For example, I can say the HG confirmed me the existence of the mighty Invisible Pink Unicorn, and You may not believe my experience. I may err or be drunken - or I may simply lie. Or I may simply can say what is expected in a given environment.

The same HG confirmed me which has confirmed You the (((moderated out by myself))).

And if you want to ask for the verification of some scientific measuring device, there are accepted phenomena which science cannot at present measure. For instance, whatever it is that alerts animals to an impending earthquake. Scientisits recognize it happens, but they don't know the mechanism, and so can't measure it.

Scientists have hypotheses about it: there may be special sounds or special scents before the more dangerous events.
Fortunately, - for example - to detect extreme low level of scents we have living devices, dogs. Dogs are more cheap to detect drugs and explosives than any electronic device, many times they are better. (I like dogs, if you look at my profile, one of my hobby is dog's etology)
Unfortunately, to research animal behaviour, the best checking device is not other animal's behaviour.

Anyway, scientists will be pleased with any result. They want to find the result, they don't want to prove a preconception.

[_truth dancer]

Yes, it is possible to detect the Holy Ghost. There are millions of witnesses to it.

More like billions.

Problem is they all seem to be told conflicting information, or interpreting incorrectly, or mistaking their witness somehow.

Everyone seems to think THEY are the ones with the REAL HG giving them the REAL witness of the REAL truth.

It would have been nice if God figured out a way to help people know which truth was the real one.

Then again maybe the real truth is the one that makes sense to our brains, matches human experience, fits with reality?

Ya never know.

;-)

~dancer~

[_charity]

On logical grounds,

What logical grounds?

This is the dispensation of the fulness of times. Restoration.

on grounds of history,

Can jihad be defended on the same basis?

The students of the Koran say it can't even be justified on the basis of the teachings of Muhammed.

on grounds of trusting in the prophetic calling of Joseph Smith, of which I have a witness from the Holy Ghost.

There are members of the FLDS Church who claimed the same regarding Warren Jeffs, and his predecessors, including Joseph Smith.

The truth is never subservient to the false claims of others.

[_charity]

Yes, it is possible to detect the Holy Ghost. There are millions of witnesses to it.

More like billions.

Problem is they all seem to be told conflicting information, or interpreting incorrectly, or mistaking their witness somehow.

Everyone seems to think THEY are the ones with the REAL HG giving them the REAL witness of the REAL truth.

It would have been nice if God figured out a way to help people know which truth was the real one.

Then again maybe the real truth is the one that makes sense to our brains, matches human experience, fits with reality?

Ya never know.

;-)

~dancer~

This life is a test. It is the responsibility of each of us to develop our abilities to learn how to listen to God. Some people want to carry cheat sheets with to the test. Won't work.

[_Dr. Shades]

[MODERATOR NOTE: Thread moved by Dr. Shades due to a Terrestrial "feel" to it that has arisen.]

[_truth dancer]

This life is a test. It is the responsibility of each of us to develop our abilities to learn how to listen to God. Some people want to carry cheat sheets with to the test. Won't work.

The problem is, everyone seems to think they are the ones passing the test.

You think you have it right. My EV neighbor is sure she has it right. Folks in the FLDS are most certain THEY are the ones with the real truth. Muslims, Scientologists, JWs, you name it, all think they have it right so no one seems to have figured out how to really tell.

Too bad God didn't figure out a way to help people know that they missed a few questions.

;-)

~dancer~

[_Jason Bourne]

Hey Harmony,

their leader was killed
they were driven from their homes in the middle of the winter
they suffered deprivation and hunger, froze, lost their spouses and their children
they were driven into the wilderness
they died in huge numbers on the way
they were tricked into accepting the Abomination
their women shouldered the burden and the shame; their men shouldered the sin
they lost everything, including their dignity

Yeah, that sounds like they were really blessed.

Once they got rid of the Abomination, the blessings returned, they flourished, they prospered.

God will not be mocked.

I've been pondering this Harmony... I truly had not ever really thought of this, after all these years, this is a new idea to contemplate.

It would be MUCH easier to believe in the LDS church if one looked upon it from this perspective. It does seem to be very true that once the polygamy nonsense was removed, the church was blessed.

I do not believe in the LDS church however, I do believe that the result of goodness, is well, goodness. And the consequences of unhealthy behavior is unhealthiness.

:-)

~dancer~

Your history is all wrong here. Joseph Smith was murdered in 1844. The Church moved away from the source of persecution, and outside the rule of the United States, which failed miserably in extending the protections of the Constituition to the Saints. For 40 years, when left alone, the Church prospered. greatly. They spread throughout the intermountain west, with numerous prosperous settlements.

The Church , in the 40 years from 1850 to 1890 more than tripled in membership. The growth rates was 369%. In the 40 years following the Manifesto, when according to you the Church should have "blossomed" freed from the horrible abomination of polygamy, the growth rate was slightly lower than that, at 355%.

Sorry ladies. Your theory that polygamy was a terrible burden on the Church just won't wash.

http://www.mormonwiki.org/Population_and_growth_rate

In a way I think Charity has a point. The LDS Church did flourish in the west albeit under great hardships and duress, some of their own making and some not. Even without polygamy, the seperatist attitude, gathering of the Saints, the political power that this brought wherever they lived and the millenialist attitude fostered by the doctrine of gathering to Zion all worked to make it very difficult for the saints to be accepted by their neighbors.

The LDS Church would never have survived had they stayed in the areas where there were a lot of others. Of course Polygamy about killed the Church even though it was isolated. But they still needed the 40 years in a wilderness where they are the majority to grow and prosper. I think they might have grown better without the polygamy. It is beyond the disputable evidence to argue that polygamy was not almost the end of the Church. That is why Pres Woodruff gave it up and JFS stomped it out. Then realizing if they did not give up the provincial separatist attitude that gathering to Zion brought the Church would not flourish they made many changes and moved from being a pariah to becoming America, mom and apple pie in a short 50 years after that.

[_harmony]

I know what drives your agenda. You hate the idea of plural marriage. And you will twist any fact you can find to fit your agenda. That you cannot see the growth of the Church before and after the Manifesto as being essentially the same shows that you cannot objectively evaluate evidence.

You said the Saints were blessed for following polygamy. I showed where they were not. If anything, they were cursed.

[_truth dancer]

In a way I think Charity has a point. The LDS Church did flourish in the west albeit under great hardships and duress, some of their own making and some not. Even without polygamy, the seperatist attitude, gathering of the Saints, the political power that this brought wherever they lived and the millenialist attitude fostered by the doctrine of gathering to Zion all worked to make it very difficult for the saints to be accepted by their neighbors.

The LDS Church would never have survived had they stayed in the areas where there were a lot of others. Of course Polygamy about killed the Church even though it was isolated. But they still needed the 40 years in a wilderness where they are the majority to grow and prosper. I think they might have grown better without the polygamy. It is beyond the disputable evidence to argue that polygamy was not almost the end of the Church. That is why Pres Woodruff gave it up and JFS stomped it out. Then realizing if they did not give up the provincial separatist attitude that gathering to Zion brought the Church would not flourish they made many changes and moved from being a pariah to becoming America, mom and apple pie in a short 50 years after that.

Hey Jason,
While I agree that often movements begin by small groups separating from the larger culture, here is the thing.

What would have happened if the early LDS leaders did NOT engage in their alternative form of partnering?

They would not have been persecuted, the HG could have inspired them to leave on better terms, with more preparation, during the summer, with lots of planning, without the hardship. They would have been free from the sorrows of having their homes destroyed, their children frozen to death, their property destroyed.

Some members look at the past and believe it is God's will without realizing that the idea that God required such a horrible situation does not speak well of a decent, kind, loving, or even remotely caring God.

The more I think about it the more Harmony's point speaks to common sense and reality.

While I do not believe a divine man/being/God had anything to do with it, again, I do believe that (for the most part), loving, healthy, "good" actions, behaviors, and thoughts equate to healthy, loving, and good outcomes. Conversely, when one hurts, demeans, manipulates, coerces, lies, cheats, abuses children, degrades women, gets caught up in ego issues, etc. etc. the results and consequences of such behavior are not so great.

And, for those who believe in a personal God directing His chosen church, isn't is EXTREMELY limiting to believe God would not have the ability to bring forth his one and only true church without causing children to freeze to death, homes to be destroyed, and families to be kicked out of their homes?

In other words, if God can create a universe, I would just sort of think he could find a way to bring forth his church in more humane ways. :-)


~dancer~