The Mormon Apologist's Modus Operandi

[_AlmaBound]

Too late by a week for something I just wrote and sent off to press.

Wow, so close! Maybe next time?

SC, are you familiar with "rolled copper printing plates?"

[_maklelan]

Having a husband who was famous, who was revered, who wasn't required to work with his hands. Have you seen the picture of the Nauvoo Mansion? Not too shabby, for a man who worked only a handful of days all the days of his life.

Only worked a handful of days his entire life? His personal journals attest to quite a bit of manual labor. Of course, it was mitigated by the amount of time he spent falsely imprisoned, but to say his life required no "work with his hands" is a grotesque misrepresentation.

[_beastie]

mak

Take your time. I'll make sure I keep my eyes open.

I’m waiting for you to provide more information and verification that backs up your assertions. You have yet to give us any detailed verified information about the thickness of the plates you’ve shared, and what is on the back-side of the plates. It’s reasonable to expect to be asked to verify whatever assertions you make. Do you really think you can post a couple of pictures and make generalizations based on those pictures and not expect to be asked to provide verification of your assertions?

Untrue. Inscriptions can be pressed in (impression) or dug out (engraving). "Inscription" just means to write on or in. If you take a look at the shorter Greek shema I posted above you'll see it is engraved rather than impressed, although the pressure used shows a couple letters impressed. The Roman bronze plates that BYU had on display recently were impressed on one side (letters pounded out with a tiny chisel-like instrument) and engraved on the other (letters carved out to form grooves).

P 148, Orson Pratt Account, Circa 1839
A hole of sufficient depth had been dug, and a flat stone laid in the bot=tom; then there were fore set erect, at the outer edges of the bottom stone, joined together by some kind of Cement, so as to form a Box[.] on the Bottom stone was laid a Shield or Breastplate, from that ar=ose three pillars formed of Cement, on the top of these pillars laid the Record, together with the “Urim and Thummim[.]” The whole not extending quite even with the top of the side stones, over the whole was placed a crowning stone, a small part of which was visible when he first visited the spot. Each plate was about six by eight inch=es, and as thick as common tin, and in each side beautifully engraved and filled with black cement, the whole being about six inches in thickness, and put together with three rings, running through the whole a part of which was sealed.

Note: each side beautifully engraved and filled with black cement

Whyme:

But this has nothing to do with Joseph Smith. He was in a different ball park. Paul was discovered as would be the case. But Joseph keep right on going. Nothing to discover that would be so earth shattering. The Paul Dunn story is a confirmation that frauds or lies are eventually discovered.

Do you seriously believe that every fraud or lie that has ever been perpetrated in the history of this planet has been eventually discovered by other human beings???

Do you think that the believers of other religions you view as fraudulent – like Scientology – have been satisfactorily demonstrated to have been fraudulent to its believers?

I would definitely welcome the news that it were a fraud. In fact, I would do an Irish Jig backwards with a smile on my face. But it will never happen.

What you would do is irrelevant. I’m talking about the early members of the church who often turned over all their material goods to the church, left their former homes and extended families, traveled under extreme hardships, endured persecutions, and sometimes watched family members and friends die due to circumstances they would never have been placed in were it not for their belief in the church. Are you actually asserting that these people, who sacrificed so much and turned their lives upside down, would welcome the news that the church was a fraud and would not feel the desire to punish Smith if it were so revealed???

[_harmony]

Having a husband who was famous, who was revered, who wasn't required to work with his hands. Have you seen the picture of the Nauvoo Mansion? Not too shabby, for a man who worked only a handful of days all the days of his life.

Only worked a handful of days his entire life? His personal journals attest to quite a bit of manual labor. Of course, it was mitigated by the amount of time he spent falsely imprisoned, but to say his life required no "work with his hands" is a grotesque misrepresentation.

You're right, Mak. I should reword that so it more clearly represents what I meant to say.

Joseph worked at a job wherein he was paid for his labors only a handful of days all of his adult life.

I don't consider being the prophet a job that came with a paycheck, do you? (Be careful. We still have a prophet today...)

[_why me]

But if it were conclusively proven, members would welcome it eventually. Better to learn of a fraud than to keep living it.

You don't know much about being a member of a tribe, do you?

I don't consider LDS members to be part of a tribe. But they are a part of a belief system. And if this belief system was proven false I would expect that many would welcome the news eventually. Of course, there would be some psychological fallout but after a while, there would be a sense of thanksgiving that they are no longer living a fraud.

But of course, as of this date, no fraud has been proven.

[_maklelan]

I’m waiting for you to provide more information and verification that backs up your assertions. You have yet to give us any detailed verified information about the thickness of the plates you’ve shared, and what is on the back-side of the plates. It’s reasonable to expect to be asked to verify whatever assertions you make. Do you really think you can post a couple of pictures and make generalizations based on those pictures and not expect to be asked to provide verification of your assertions?

I honestly don't think verification would make a lick of difference to you. You've grasped on to this imagined fact and don't seem to want to let it go no matter what. My statements can be verified, however, in the following publications:

Gabriel Barkay, "The Priestly Benediction on Silver Plaques from Ketef Hinnom in Jerusalem," Tel Aviv 19.2 (1992): 139-92.

http://public.univie.ac.at/index.php?id ... 83dc621ffd

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/2939362.stm

P 148, Orson Pratt Account, Circa 1839
A hole of sufficient depth had been dug, and a flat stone laid in the bot=tom; then there were fore set erect, at the outer edges of the bottom stone, joined together by some kind of Cement, so as to form a Box[.] on the Bottom stone was laid a Shield or Breastplate, from that ar=ose three pillars formed of Cement, on the top of these pillars laid the Record, together with the “Urim and Thummim[.]” The whole not extending quite even with the top of the side stones, over the whole was placed a crowning stone, a small part of which was visible when he first visited the spot. Each plate was about six by eight inch=es, and as thick as common tin, and in each side beautifully engraved and filled with black cement, the whole being about six inches in thickness, and put together with three rings, running through the whole a part of which was sealed.

Note: each side beautifully engraved and filled with black cement[/quote]

And since Orson Pratt never saw the plates, this is irrelevant. Drop this silly point and move on to something you can defend. You're out of your league with this one.

[_maklelan]

You're right, Mak. I should reword that so it more clearly represents what I meant to say.

Joseph worked at a job wherein he was paid for his labors only a handful of days all of his adult life.

And what on earth does this have to do with anything at all? You make some of the most meaningless posts I've ever read, harmony.

I don't consider being the prophet a job that came with a paycheck, do you? (Be careful. We still have a prophet today...)

And I know far more about his financial situation than you do. Stop wasting everyone's time with this smarmy condescension.

[_why me]

Hello Shades!

However, goodness is known by the seeds that it produces. I don't see much good seed coming from the list that you provided as a comparison to Mormonism. Now of course, catholicism and protestantism has produced good seed. And Mormonism has produced goodness and virtue.

But until god is proven to be a fraud, I am afraid that religions that give goodness will continue to exist. But the more corrupt churches as you listed will fall by the wayside as they have done.

[_harmony]

You're right, Mak. I should reword that so it more clearly represents what I meant to say.

Joseph worked at a job wherein he was paid for his labors only a handful of days all of his adult life.

And what on earth does this have to do with anything at all? You make some of the most meaningless posts I've ever read, harmony.

You're the one who seemed to think it was okay to say Emma was a stupid minded mook who believed every thing her husband ever said or did. I took exception and showed why. If you don't like the discussion tangent, why did you feel the need to follow it?

I don't consider being the prophet a job that came with a paycheck, do you? (Be careful. We still have a prophet today...)

And I know far more about his financial situation than you do. Stop wasting everyone's time with this smarmy condescension.

Do NOT ever make the mistake of thinking you can tell me or anyone else on this board what to do. If you think my posts are a waste of time, don't read them. But do NOT tell me to stop anything, ever. This isn't MAD and you aren't God here.

[Tator]

I honestly don't think verification would make a lick of difference to you. You've grasped on to this imagined fact and don't seem to want to let it go no matter what. My statements can be verified, however, in the following publications:

Gabriel Barkay, "The Priestly Benediction on Silver Plaques from Ketef Hinnom in Jerusalem," Tel Aviv 19.2 (1992): 139-92.

http://public.univie.ac.at/index.php?id ... 83dc621ffd

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/2939362.stm

If either of these references said anything about the thickness of the plates or the condition of the back-side of the plates, I couldn't find it.

Which source did you rely on to assert that the back-side of these plates did not show any sign of impression? Which source did you rely on to assert that the plates were thin enough to "rustle"?

And since Orson Pratt never saw the plates, this is irrelevant. Drop this silly point and move on to something you can defend. You're out of your league with this one.

His description was good enough for LDS.org

1. “Church History,” Times and Seasons, Mar. 1, 1842, 707 (also known as the Wentworth Letter); “The Testimony of Eight Witnesses,” Book of Mormon; and An Interesting Account of Several Remarkable Visions, and of the Late Discovery of Ancient American Records [pamphlet, 1840], 12–13. Orson Pratt was not an eyewitness of the plates but gathered eyewitness accounts.

http://www.LDS.org/ldsorg/v/index.jsp?v ... 6f620a____

by the way, I think it's pretty funny that someone who has yet to offer any verification of his claims is crowing about me being "out of my league". Your league, so far, just seems to consist of making assertions based on photographs that do not provide evidence for your assertions, providing links to articles that also do not provide evidence for your assertions, and dismissing a source the church's own website is content to use.