Rich's Website

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_Simon Belmont

Re: Rich's Website

Post by _Simon Belmont »

Jersey Girl wrote:Belmont,

With all due respect, it is clear to me that you aren't well familiar with Criddle's work. The links that you extracted from Rich's website are not wordprint studies.

Criddle has conducted NO wordprint studies.

Are you aware of that?


You're right. I'm not familiar with Criddle's work -- only that he is a critic of my faith.

That was my whole point.

How many links does Rich provide that aren't hostile toward my faith?

Count them -- one (the Joseph Smith Papers).
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Re: Rich's Website

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Simon Belmont wrote:You're right. I'm not familiar with Criddle's work -- only that he is a critic of my faith.

That was my whole point.

How many links does Rich provide that aren't hostile toward my faith?

Count them -- one (the Joseph Smith Papers).


So what. Again, why do you think it is wrong to put accurate information about other religions on ones website? If one believes certain belief are incorrect what is wrong with publically saying so?
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_Buffalo
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Re: Rich's Website

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When it comes to Mormonism, accurate information is inherently critical in nature. Good point, Simon.
Parley P. Pratt wrote:We must lie to support brother Joseph, it is our duty to do so.

B.R. McConkie, © Intellectual Reserve wrote:There are those who say that revealed religion and organic evolution can be harmonized. This is both false and devilish.
_rich kelsey
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Re: Rich's Website

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Buffalo wrote:When it comes to Mormonism, accurate information is inherently critical in nature....


Well, I thought I would put up my very first work on Mormonism, 3 pages at a time. Perhaps board members will care to comment on what I have written in this article? Thanks. Rich.

An Incredible Story Part I — The Book of Mormon

Rich Kelsey



What comes to mind when people think of Mormons? Many of us envision clean-cut young adults riding bicycles or knocking on doors. That’s because Mormons between the ages of 19 to 25 are encouraged to go on a fulltime, two year mission. Over the course of this mission, these young adults follow a rigid schedule of evangelizing which includes “bearing testimony.”[1]

The most common testimony Mormon missionaries share is called the “burning in the bosom.” Mormons are taught that if people ask if something is true, with a sincere heart, with real intent, and having faith in Christ, God will cause their bosom to burn[2] as a confirming sign.

Mormons often encourage potential converts to ask[3] God about the truthfulness of the Book of Mormon, and to look for this sign confirming it. The implication is, if the seeker does not get the burning bosom experience, then he or she was not sincere, lacked faith, or possibly did not show real intent.

Mormons are taught that God will give them a personal witness, or revelation, as to what is true. The Book of Mormon substantiates this:

And by the power of the Holy Ghost ye may know the truth of all things (Moroni, 10:5).


The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints teaches that:

“Feelings from the Holy Ghost are personal revelation to you that confirm the truth of the Book of Mormon and the gospel of Jesus Christ as restored through the Prophet Joseph Smith.”[4]

(The broader meaning of 'personal revelation' includes: logic, study, pondering and deep thought, intuition and utilizing all the cognitive and spiritual capacities that we have).

New converts are assured that they don’t need to try to prove the Book of Mormon, intellectually, or on paper, because the Holy Ghost will lead them in matters of truth. The following transcript from a Mormon video further demonstrates this teaching:

A young woman named Jennifer is bearing testimony; she was baptized into The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints in 1993:

“It was not a decision I made with my head, it wasn’t. That was what was so odd about it, was that I was raised in academia, everything made sense. I studied. I was a math brain, a science brain, everything had to make sense and this was the first time in my life, that I was making the biggest decision that I had ever made, based on something that I didn’t feel that I could or had to prove on paper...

(page 1)
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Continued:

...I knew that God told me this was true, I knew that I’d read the Book of Mormon and that I had prayed, and that I had done everything the Missionaries told me to do and that I, without any question, knew that this 14 year old boy in New York — Joseph Smith — was actually a prophet of God and that the Book of Mormon was actually the word of God and that the truth had been restored, and I couldn’t prove it, I didn’t, I didn’t have any proof, and, and so it wasn’t, it wasn’t anything that was logical, to ask me what I was thinking, I wasn’t thinking. I was feeling. And, I hadn’t ever really been in touch with my emotions before, and, I didn’t realize how much more powerful that would be.” (Narrative from, The Restoration of Truth – How Can I Know This Is True, 2008, video, @ Mormon.org)



Mormon Faith

Dallin H. Oaks, one of the Twelve Apostles of the LDS Church, said:

“Our individual, personal testimonies are based on the witness of the Spirit, not on any combination or accumulation of historical facts.”[5]

Possibly the reason Mormons have such strong testimonies is because from the first moment they encounter the LDS Church, they are taught, and also encouraged, to give such testimonies.

Usually once a month, on the first Sunday of each month, a Fast and Testimony Meeting is held. During these meetings, faithful members of the LDS Church are invited to bear a verbal witness of their feelings. New converts are often encouraged to give a pure testimony, such as:

"’I know the church is true.’ ‘I know Joseph Smith is a prophet of God.’ And, or, ‘I know the Book of Mormon is true.’"

In Mormon ideology, if one doesn’t have a testimony yet, one can get a testimony by bearing one. Mormons often find that their testimony gets stronger each time they bear it; but, is confessing faith in something over and over again, until people firmly believe in it, really the way to determine truth?

This Mormon principle has encouraged untold numbers of new converts and other faithful Mormons to testify that they are strong in the Mormon faith, when in reality, they still have doubts.

The very fact that Mormons get together, bearing and listening to testimonies, such as, “I know the Book of Mormon is true,” points to the possibility that they need more convincing themselves.

(Page 2)

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Reasons for Doubt

Respected BYU Professor, Daniel C. Peterson, spelled out:

"I cheerfully admit, and routinely say, that Mormonism has not proven its claims. I don't think it's supposed to do so, either..."

One might wonder why the LDS Church downplays the need to prove the Book of Mormon. Maybe, it’s because evidence to indicate the book’s truthfulness, such as the golden plates, along with the special glasses[6] used for translation were allegedly taken [7] from the Mormon Prophet, Joseph Smith, by a divine messenger, and so far, nothing from the ancient civilizations mentioned in the Book of Mormon has been discovered.

For example:

The National Geographic Society,

“does not know of anything found so far that has substantiated the Book of Mormon."[8]

The Smithsonian Institution reports,

“Smithsonian archeologists see no direct connection between the archeology of the New World and the subject matter of the book.”[9]

It’s not just the lack of evidence that makes the Book of Mormon difficult to prove; there are also a number of things that appear wrong with the book:

"...the terminologies and the language used and the methods of explaining and putting things down are 19th century literary concepts and cultural experiences one would expect Joseph Smith and his colleagues would experience” (Dr. Ray T. Matheny, Mormon professor of Anthropology, Brigham Young University).


Scholar, Seeker of Truth, and Regrettably, Finder of Truth:[10]

Thomas Stuart Ferguson, a distinguished and devout Mormon archeologist, set out to prove to the world that the Book of Mormon was true. Ferguson thought it would be possible to find artifacts from archaeological digs that would confirm its truthfulness. All he had to do was use the Book of Mormon as a guide because it spells out a time when a people called the Nephites lived in the New World, and it mentions several Nephite cities by name,[11] along with Nephite lands and villages. The Book of Mormon records that the Nephites constructed houses of cement,[12] as well as temples, synagogues and sanctuaries [13] throughout their territories.

Yet, with all of the digs and research Ferguson and his team undertook, they failed to find one artifact to prove that Book of Mormon Nephite cities, villages, or territories ever existed.

After twenty-five years of research, Ferguson concluded:

"…you can’t set Book of Mormon geography down anywhere, because it is fictional...”[14]

Ferguson, whose original goal was to prove to the world that the Book of Mormon was true,[15] eventually lost faith in the Book of Mormon.

(Page 3)

Link: http://richkelsey.org/book_of_mormon.htm
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[1] "Latter-day Saints often bear testimony when teaching in Church services, when explaining gospel principles to members of other faiths, and in the fast and testimony meeting, held monthly in each congregation … Latter-day Saint missionaries, in particular, rely on testimony bearing, rather than on logic or artifice, to reach their listeners. The impact of this faith and practice is illustrated by Brigham Young's account of his own conversion to the gospel when as LDS missionary, Eleazar Miller, bore his testimony: If all the talent, tact, wisdom and refinement of the world had been sent to me with the Book of Mormon, and had declared, in the most exalted of earthly eloquence, the truth of it, undertaking to prove it by learning, and worldly wisdom, they would have been to me like the smoke which arises only to vanish away. But when I saw a man without eloquence, or talents for public speaking, who could only say, 'I know, by the power of the Holy Ghost, that the Book of Mormon is true, that Joseph Smith is a prophet of the Lord," the Holy Ghost proceeding from that individual illuminated my understanding, and light, glory, and immortality were before me. I was encircled by them, filled with them, and I knew for myself that the testimony of the man was true.'"[JD 1:90]. (About Mormons, by Clayton Christensen)

[2] “But, behold, I say unto you, that you must study it out in your mind; then you must ask me if it be right, and if it is right I will cause that your bosom shall burn within you; therefore, you shall feel that it is right” (Doctrine and Covenants, 9:8).

[3] “And when ye shall receive these things, I would exhort you that ye would ask God, the Eternal Father, in the name of Christ, if these things are not true; and if ye shall ask with a sincere heart, with real intent, having faith in Christ, he will manifest the truth of it unto you, by the power of the Holy Ghost” (Book of Mormon, Moroni, 10:4).

[4] (The Restoration of Truth – How Can I Know This Is True, 2008 , text @ Mormon.org)

[5] (Doctrine and Covenants Conference, Brigham Young University, Aug. 16, 1985)

[6] "After affixing the magical spectacles to his eyes, Smith would take the plates and translate the characters one at a time. The graven characters would appear in succession to the seer, and directly under the character, when viewed through the glasses, would be the translation in English." (Statement by David Whitmer, Deseret Evening News, December 24, 1885)

[7] “But by the wisdom of God, they (the golden plates) remained safe in my hands, until I had accomplished by them what was required at my hand. When according to arrangements, the messenger called for them, I delivered them up to him: and he has them in his charge until this day, being the second day of May, one thousand eight hundred and thirty eight.” (Origin of the Book of Mormon, p.3, 1977 edition, Book of Mormon preface, also found in The Pearl of Great Price)

[8] "Thank you for contacting the National Geographic Society. Our position on the Book of Mormon has not changed, nor have we retracted any statements made previously. The National Geographic Society has not examined the historical claims of the Book of Mormon. We know of no archaeological evidence that corroborates the ancient history of the Western Hemisphere as presented in the Book of Mormon, nor are we aware of empirical verification of the places named in the Book of Mormon. The Book of Mormon is clearly a work of great spiritual power; millions have read and revered its words, first published by Joseph Smith in 1830. Yet Smith's narration is not generally taken as a scientific source for the history of the Americas. Archaeologists and other scholars have long probed the hemisphere's past, and the Society does not know of anything found so far that has substantiated the Book of Mormon. In fact, students of prehistoric America by and large conclude that the New World's earliest inhabitants arrived from Asia via the Bering land bridge. (Lower sea levels during ice ages exposed the continental shelf beneath Bering Strait, allowing generations of ancient Siberians to migrate east.) National Geographic carried "The First Americans" in its September 1979 issue, perhaps on your library's shelf… Sincerely, Lisa Walker" (Research Correspondence (The National Geographic's Statement Regarding the Book of Mormon Received via Email 1/21/2001)

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Also consider: "The first myth we need to eliminate is that Book of Mormon archaeology exists… no Book of Mormon location is known with reference to modern topography. Biblical archaeology can be studied because we do know where Jerusalem and Jericho were and are, but we do not know where Zarahemla and Bountiful were or are. It would seem then that a concentration on geography should be the first order of business, but we have already seen that twenty years of such an approach has left us empty-handed." (Dialogue: A Journal of Mormon Thought, Summer 1969, pp. 77-78 by Dee F. Green, editor of the University Archaeological Society Newsletter, published at the Mormon church’s Brigham Young University)

[9] (The Smithsonian Institution statement on The Book of Mormon)

[10] In a paper entitled, "Thomas Stuart Ferguson, 1915-83," Fred W. Nelson wrote the following: "Thomas Ferguson has either directly or indirectly influenced thousands of people's thinking on archaeology.... He has had a great influence on professional archaeology through the Department of Archaeology at Brigham Young University, the Gates Collection, and the New World Archaeological Foundation.... Ferguson's legacy in the founding of the Archaeology Department at Brigham Young University, the obtaining of the Gates Collection, and as founder of the New World Archaeology Foundation stands as a shining example to us all." (As cited in The Messiah in Ancient America, pp. 282-83)

[11]

City of Ammonihah, Wicked Nephite City, 'Desolation of Nehors'

City of Bountiful, Major Nephite city in the northeastern quadrant

City by the Sea, Nephite city on the west coast

City of Cumeni, Nephite city fought for by Helaman

City of Desolation, Northern Nephite City

City of Jordan, Nephite retreat maintained by Mormon

City of Judea, Nephite city

City of and Land of Moroni, In southeast of Nephite lands

City of Moronihah, Iniquitous Nephite city

City of Mulek, Nephite city south of Bountiful

City of Nephihah, Nephite refuge captured and lost by the Lamanites

City of Omner, Nephite city by seashore on east borders

City of and Land of Shem2, Nephite land north of Antum and Jashon

City of Zarahemla, Major capital of Nephites from about 200 B.C. to A.D. 200

City of Zeezrom, Nephite city on southwest frontier

[12] “Many Nephites migrate to the land northward—They build houses of cement and keep many records—Tens of thousands are converted and baptized—The word of God leads men to salvation—Nephi the son of Helaman fills the judgment seat. Between 49 and 39 B.C.” (Introduction to the Book of Helaman 3).

[13] “But behold, a hundredth part of the proceedings of this people, yea, the account of the Lamanites and of the Nephites, and their wars, and contentions, and dissensions, and their preaching, and their prophecies, and their shipping and their building of ships, and their building of temples, and of synagogues and their sanctuaries, and their righteousness, and their wickedness, and their murders, and their robbings, and their plundering, and all manner of abominations and whoredoms, cannot be contained in this work.” (Helaman 3:14)

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[14] Thomas Stuart Ferguson was, at one time, one of the most noted defenders of Book of Mormon archaeology. Mr. Ferguson planned the New World Archaeological Foundation which he hoped would prove the Book of Mormon through archaeological research. The Mormon Church granted hundreds of thousands of dollars to this organization, but in the end, Thomas Stuart Ferguson admitted that although the Foundation made some important contributions to New World archaeology, all his work with regard to the Book of Mormon was in vain. He admitted, in fact, that he had wasted twenty-five years of his life trying to prove the Book of Mormon. In 1975 Ferguson prepared a 29-page paper in which he wrote: "I'm afraid that up to this point, I must agree with Dee Green, who has told us that to date there is no Book-of-Mormon geography." In a letter to Mr. & Mrs. H.W. Lawrence, dated Feb. 20, 1976, Thomas Stuart Ferguson plainly stated: "…you can’t set Book of Mormon geography down anywhere - because it is fictional and will never meet the requirements of the dirt-archeology."

[15] In a letter to Mormon President David O. McKay, dated Dec. 14, 1951, Ferguson wrote: "If the anticipated evidences confirming the Book of Mormon are found, worldwide notice will be given to the restored gospel through the Book of Mormon. The artifacts will speak eloquently from the dust." (The Messiah in Ancient America, p. 257)
My site:
http://richkelsey.org/index.htm
If you haven’t read my articles on Mormonism please go to the site and read them.

Rich Kelsey
_shadiq
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Re: Rich's Website

Post by _shadiq »

This is quite informative.
_rich kelsey
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Re: Rich's Website

Post by _rich kelsey »

shadiq wrote:This is quite informative.


I will continue to put up my very first work on Mormonism, 3 pages at a time. Perhaps board members will care to comment on what I have written in this article? Thanks. Rich.

An Incredible Story Part I — The Book of Mormon

Rich Kelsey


Continued from page 3...


Yet Ferguson had reasons why he never left the LDS Church. Here is a letter he wrote to an associate about his decision to stay with Mormonism:

"Perhaps you and I have been spoofed by Joseph Smith. Now that we have the inside dope—why not spoof a little back and stay aboard? Please consider this letter confidential—for obvious reasons. I want to stay aboard the good ship, Mormonism—for various reasons that I think valid. First, several of my dearly loved family members want desperately to believe and do believe it and they each need it. It does them far more good than harm. Belonging, with my eyes wide open is actually fun… I never get up and bear testimony... You might give my suggestions a trial run.”[16]

Ferguson felt that revealing the truth about the Book of Mormon to his dearly beloved family would be bad for them. This type of reasoning reminds me of a quote from Herbert Spencer, who was a 19th Century philosopher:

“The greatest of all infidelities is the fear that the truth will be bad.”

The word infidelities means: “absence of religious belief.” What greater “absence of religious belief” could one possibly have, than to fear that “the truth will be bad?” True religion is all about truth. If the truth might, or will be bad for people, then something is seriously wrong with their faith!

A Mormon article entitled: "Does Geography in the Book of Mormon Matter?" spells out,

“…the geography question has not been answered by church authorities, nor have the opinions worked out by geography hobbyists yet led to agreement. In 1947 it was still possible to hope that ‘out of the studies of faithful Latter-day Saints may yet come a unity of opinion concerning Book of Mormon geography’ as Elder Widtsoe put it. But in the half century since, confusion has grown.” (Provo, Utah: BYU, Maxwell Institute)

Today, Mormons are left with the daunting task of trying to convince investigators that 'the geography question' really doesn't matter.

Book of Mormon Story

Joseph Smith, the founder of the LDS Church, claimed that he obtained golden plates upon which were written an account of the former inhabitants of America; this alleged history of America is recorded in the Book of Mormon.

Smith claimed that in 1823 he experienced a heavenly visitation in which he was directed to a hill in Western New York to uncover a box containing golden plates. Four years later, in 1827, an angel allegedly allowed Joseph Smith to take possession of the plates, along with a special set of glasses, so he could translate the language on the plates into English.

The language written on the plates was said to be a form of Egyptian called “reformed Egyptian.”

(page 4)

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Mormonism teaches that America’s former inhabitants were white and had sailed to America from the Holy Land, speaking both Hebrew as well as Egyptian.

Problems with the Story

There is no evidence that people in ancient America ever spoke or wrote in Hebrew or Egyptian.[17] How is it possible that civilizations mentioned in the Book of Mormon left "absolutely nothing"[18] to point to their existence? One looking into the people and lands of the Bible, as well as other ancient civilizations, including those in North, Central, and South America,[19] can find plenty of evidence that those civilizations existed, including pre-Columbian, Mesoamerican civilizations dating back to the same period[20] mentioned in the Book of Mormon.

The Book of Mormon states:

The whole face of the land had become covered with buildings, and the people were as numerous almost, as it were the sand of the sea (Mormon 1:7).

If the Book of Mormon were true, we should expect to find remnants of these buildings across the American Continent. Yet, there is no archeological evidence to show that about 1,700 years ago, buildings covered America. Also, strictly from a logistical point of view, it would be impossible to cover the whole face of the land due to America’s diverse mountain terrains; desert regions, and forests.

Neither is there evidence that people once inhabited all of America like this passage claims:

And it came to pass that they did multiply and spread, and did go forth from the land southward to the land northward, and did spread insomuch that they began to cover the face of the whole earth, from the sea south to the sea north, from the sea west to the sea east (Helaman 3:8).


Zelph the Lamanite?

In 1834, after some Mormons unearthed a skeleton from an Indian burial mound in Illinois, Joseph Smith claimed that God showed him that the Indian bones were from,

“an officer who fell in battle, in the last destruction among the Lamanites, and his name was Zelph.”[21]

Because the buried man’s skeleton was almost intact,[22] Joseph Smith was claiming that descendants of Book of Mormon peoples were living, battling, and dying in Illinois in recent history. Instead of Smith solving the mystery of this Indian man’s origin, Smith’s revelation only adds to the ongoing puzzle.

(page 5)

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On this subject, a noted Mormon[23] Anthropologist maintains:

"I have serious problems with the Book of Mormon's representations of American Indians. Not only does it claim that Lamanites are the principle ancestors of American Indians, but throughout the text it repeatedly refers to them as Israelites, as descendants of Joseph; of descendants of the Biblical Patriarchs of Abraham. Those repeated references to an ancient Israelite connection have been clearly invalidated by scientific research…” (Thomas Murphy).


Lehi’s Voyage to America

In the Book of Mormon, a story is told of a Hebrew family that flees the city of Jerusalem about 600 B.C. Their father's name is Lehi, an alleged descendant of the Bible’s Joseph. Lehi's son Nephi was his most righteous son. Nephi became the leader over his rebellious brothers.

God instructed Lehi and his family to sail across the ocean to the American continent at about 589 B.C. After arriving, Nephi and his oldest brother Laman had a conflict and separated. This conflict created two nations; the Nephites and the Lamanites.

The Nephites had God's favor, they are described as being:

white and exceedingly fair and delightsome (2 Nephi 5:21).

The Lamanites supposedly were cursed to have black skin and were primitive compared to the Nephites. These two nations fought against each other, on and off, for centuries.

Eventually, the prophet Mormon became the leader of the Nephites and he proposed[24] that the entire Nephite nation should gather at the hill Cumorah in Western New York to battle the Lamanites.

In this battle, the Nephite nation was destroyed.[25] Yet, Mormon’s son Moroni lived. Moroni then engraved an account of the battle on golden plates and buried those plates, along with other plates,[26] which his father had passed onto him, in the hill Cumorah, in present day Western New York.

(page 6)

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Endnotes:

[16] (Letter from Thomas Stuart Ferguson to Mr. & Mrs. H. W. Lawrence, dated Feb. 20, 1976)

[17] “No reputable Egyptologist or other specialist on Old World archeology, and no expert on New World prehistory, has discovered or confirmed any relationship between archeological remains in Mexico and archeological remains in Egypt. Reports of findings of ancient Egyptian Hebrew, and other Old World writings in the New World in pre-Columbian contexts have frequently appeared in newspapers, magazines, and sensational books. None of these claims has stood up to examination by reputable scholars. No inscriptions using Old World forms of writing have been shown to have occurred in any part of the Americas before 1492 …” (The Smithsonian Institution statement on The Book of Mormon)

[18] In 1973, Michael Coe, one of the best known authorities on archaeology of the New World, wrote an article for Dialogue: A Journal of Mormon Thought, Summer 1973. After telling of the Mormon belief in Joseph Smith and the Book of Mormon, he frankly stated: "Let me now state uncategorically that as far as I know there is not one professionally trained archaeologist, who is not a Mormon, who sees any scientific justification for believing the foregoing to be true,... nothing, absolutely nothing, has ever shown up in any New World excavation which would suggest to a dispassionate observer that the Book of Mormon... is a historical document relating to the history of early migrants to our hemisphere." (pp.42, 46)

[19] The Olmec civilization — 1,200 – 400 BC — flourished on the gulf coast of Mexico, and constructed the first pyramids in the North American continent as well as the big stone 'baby-faced' head monuments. The ancient Maya Civilization occupied much of the central North American continent based on the gulf coast of what is now Mexico between 2500 BC and AD 1500, and are known for their amazing complex artwork, particularly murals, and graceful pyramids. The capital city of the Zapotec Civilization — 500 BC – 750 AD is Monte Alban in the valley of Oaxaca in central Mexico. Monte Alban is one of the most intensively studied archaeological sites in the Americas, The Inca civilization was the largest civilization in the Americas when the Spanish conquistadors arrived in the early 16th century. The Mississippian culture is a term used by archaeologists to refer to cultures inhabiting the length of the Mississippi River, The Aztec civilization was at the height of their power and influence when the Spanish arrived. Warlike, intractable, and aggressive, the Aztecs conquered much of Central America.

[20] Pre-Classic—Maya, Olmec and Zapotec civilizations flourished during the approximate period that events spoken of in the Book of Mormon are said to have occurred.

[21] "It was made known to Joseph that he had been an officer who fell in battle, in the last destruction among the Lamanites, and his name was Zelph. This caused us to rejoice much, to think that God was so mindful of us as to show these things to his servant. Brother Joseph had enquired of the Lord and it was made known in a vision." (Kimball 1841)

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[22] "At about one foot deep we discovered the skeleton of a man, almost entire; and between two of his ribs we found an Indian arrow, which had evidently been the cause of his death. We took the leg and thigh bones and carried them along with us to Clay county. All four appeared sound."(Kimbal 1841)

[23] In an interview on Jan. 14, 2003, Murphy acknowledged that he's not an active member of the church anymore. "I'm a cultural Mormon," he explained. "I prefer to be called a latter-day skeptic."

[24] "And I, Mormon, wrote an epistle unto the king of the Lamanites, and desired of him that he would grant unto us that we might gather together our people unto the land of Cumorah, by a hill which was called Cumorah, and there we could give them battle. And it came to pass that the king of the Lamanites did grant unto me the thing which I desired." (Mormon, 6:2-3)

[25] "The Nephites gather to the land of Cumorah for the final battles—Mormon hides the sacred records in the hill Cumorah—The Lamanites are victorious, and the Nephite nation is destroyed—Hundreds of thousands are slain with the sword. [A.D. 385]" (Introduction to Words of Mormon, Chapter 6)

[26] “And behold, ye shall take the plates of Nephi unto yourself, and the remainder shall ye leave in the place where they are; and ye shall engrave on the plates of Nephi all the things that ye have observed concerning this people.” (Words of Mormon 1:4).
My site:
http://richkelsey.org/index.htm
If you haven’t read my articles on Mormonism please go to the site and read them.

Rich Kelsey
_rich kelsey
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Posts: 121
Joined: Sun May 29, 2011 11:52 pm

Re: Rich's Website

Post by _rich kelsey »

I will continue to put up my very first work on Mormonism, 3 pages at a time. Perhaps board members will care to comment on what I have written in this article? Thanks. Rich.

An Incredible Story Part I — The Book of Mormon

Rich Kelsey


Continued from page 6...

Several things seem wrong with this story:


· Mormon desired to have every single one of his subjects fight in a final battle. His request brought about the annihilation of the remaining Nephite nation. If this story is true, Mormon's call to battle is one of the biggest military blunders of all time. Let's try to imagine the Bible's King Solomon leading the nation of Israel to destruction. If he had done so, how many would consider Solomon a wise man?

· Also, it’s hard to imagine how the Nephites, who had migrated throughout the entire Northern American Continent, could be summoned to battle. For example: How would all the Nephites get the message?

· Logistically, it would seem impossible for every Nephite family in America to battle the Lamanites, on, and around, that small hill in New York. If these peoples were as numerous as the Book of Mormon claims they were, they could not have fit in that small section of New York.

· There is the story itself: of the Nephite nation being destroyed in a final battle. It provides readers with an answer as to why only the primitive dark-skinned Lamanites (American Indians) were found in America when Columbus set foot on the Continent. Yet, this Book of Mormon story raises more questions than it answers; like, why would Mormon have the Nephites bring their wives and children to battle?



The Book of Mormon records:

And it came to pass that my people, with their wives and their children, did now behold the armies of the Lamanites marching towards them; and with that awful fear of death which fills the breasts of all the wicked, did they await to receive them.

And it came to pass that they came to battle against us, and every soul was filled with terror because of the greatness of their numbers.

And it came to pass that they did fall upon my people with the sword, and with the bow, and with the arrow, and with the ax, and with all manner of weapons of war. (Mormon, 6:7-9)

(page 7)

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According to the Book of Mormon, this was not the first time an entire nation fought in a single battle. About 515 years earlier there was another battle on that same hill.[27] In this battle, the Jaredite nation consisting of the people of Coriantumr and the people of Shiz, is utterly destroyed:

Millions of the Jaredites are slain in battle—Shiz and Coriantumr assemble all the people to mortal combat—The Spirit of the Lord ceases to strive with them—The Jaredite nation is utterly destroyed—Only Coriantumr remains (Introduction to Ether 15).

Once again, gathering millions[28] of Americans from every corner of the continent would have been nearly impossible. Obviously 2,600 years ago people couldn’t turn on the nightly news and learn about the call to go to war. There were no televisions; phones, or any other type of device that could have provided long distance communication.

Because horses weren't present[29] in America until Cortes brought them over in 1519 A.D., messengers would have needed to traverse the whole face of the land on foot in order to summon all the people:

Wherefore, they were for the space of four years gathering together the people, that they might get all who were upon the face of the land, and that they might receive all the strength which it was possible that they could receive. (Ether 15:14)

Then everyone would have needed to walk to get to the battleground. Why would every family in America decide to go on such a laborious journey? The supposed influence which Coriantumr and Shiz had upon people seems far fetched. Why would families living hundreds, if not thousands of miles away from these two monarchs have such strong political ties to them?

Furthermore, there’s the food and supplies people would have required to travel the distance. Can you imagine all of the families of America walking to New York, carrying with them extra clothes, cooking implements, food, and possibly weapons etc. for the great battle they were summoned to:

And it came to pass that when they were all gathered together, every one to the army which he would, with their wives and their children—both men, women and children being armed with weapons of war, having shields, and breastplates, and head-plates, and being clothed after the manner of war—they did march forth one against another to battle; and they fought all that day, and conquered not. (Ether 15:15)

Again, wives and children were involved in this battle. This would answer why the entire Jaredite nation was destroyed. Yet, it doesn’t make much sense: can you imagine five-year-old boys and girls wearing body armor and being armed with weapons of war?

During the four years it supposedly took to gather everyone to combat, what if Coriantumr and Shiz had accidently started the battle a week or two too soon; leaving thousands of families still on the way. As far as the story goes, the timing of the battle was crucial. A four year build up to war would create some obvious problems: Why would families that showed up, three, or four years early, wait around? Didn’t they have anything better to do? Also, what about the food and provisions needed to support these families during the years this build up was taking place?


(page 8)
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Then, there is the battle itself, which would have been a bloodbath, seeing that millions were supposedly slaughtered on and around a hill. Walking to that scene would have meant that families waded through blood and stepped over countless dead bodies. It seems hard to believe, that none of these families, seeing that huge bloody mess didn’t make a decision to turn around and go home. Instead, they all decided to die for the cause.

If the gathering over a span of four years of every American family, and also the slaughter of every person gathered was not too hard to believe, what also seems strange is that out of the millions of people dying on the battlefield, the two monarchs who summoned the people to battle in the first place ended up being the only two people left standing.

Then there is the account of how the monarch Shiz died:

And it came to pass that after he [Coriantumr] had smitten off the head of Shiz, that Shiz raised up on his hands and fell; and after that he struggled for breath, he died. (Ether 15:31)



Brigham Henry Roberts, who was an LDS General Authority and Assistant Church Historian, examined the literary style within the Book of Mormon and concluded:

“The narrative proceeds in characteristic disregard of conditions necessary to its reasonableness, as if it were a tale told by a child, with utter disregard for consistency."[30]



Smith supposed that the American Indians living in his day were decedents from an ancient race originating from the House of Israel.

THE

Book of Mormon:

AN ACCOUNT WRITTEN BY THE HAND OF Mormon,
UPON PLATES TAKEN FROM
THE PLATES OF NEPHI

Wherefore it is an abridgement of the Record of the People of Nephi; and also of the Lamanites; written to the Lamanites, which are a remnant of the House of Israel… (1830 Book of Mormon Title page)

God, supposedly speaking through Smith, said in a revelation; or, as it was originally called, a “commandment:”


“…for this very purpose are these plates preserved which contain these records, that the promises of the Lord might be fulfilled, which he made to his people; and that the Lamanites might come to the knowledge of their fathers, and that they might know the promises of the Lord, and that they may believe the gospel and rely upon the merits of Jesus Christ…” (1833 Book of Commandments, 2:6)

(page 9)

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Endnotes:

[26] “And behold, ye shall take the plates of Nephi unto yourself, and the remainder shall ye leave in the place where they are; and ye shall engrave on the plates of Nephi all the things that ye have observed concerning this people.” (Words of Mormon 1:4).

[27] “And it came to pass that the army of Coriantumr did pitch their tents by the hill Ramah; and it was that same hill where my father Mormon did hide up the records unto the Lord, which were sacred.” (Ether 15:11)

[28] "He saw that there had been slain by the sword already nearly two millions of his people, and he began to sorrow in his heart; yea, there had been slain two millions of mighty men, and also their wives and their children." (Ether 15:2)

[29] Some Mormon apologists speculate that horses mentioned in the Book of Mormon may have actually been the Central American Tapir, or possibly deer: Alma 18: 9, Alma 18: 12, Alma 20: 6, 3 Ne. 3: 22

[30] (Roberts 1985, p. 251: From Robert’s own writings in his landmark work: Studies of the Book of Mormon; which remained unpublished until decades after his death).
My site:
http://richkelsey.org/index.htm
If you haven’t read my articles on Mormonism please go to the site and read them.

Rich Kelsey
_rich kelsey
_Emeritus
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Re: Rich's Website

Post by _rich kelsey »

An Incredible Story Part I — The Book of Mormon

Rich Kelsey


Continued...

The Book of Mormon has America’s ancient peoples shooting arrows, brandishing axes, and scalping each other. It has a soldier talking about an Indian Chief. It has Indians riding horses. Some of these details are to be expected from America's past. Yet, we know horses and chariots did not exist in America during supposed Book of Mormon times.

...their land is also full of horses, neither is there any end of their chariots. (2 Nephi 12:7)

Also, recent DNA evidence demonstrates that Native American peoples — the Indians — did not originate from the House of Israel.

Link: http://richkelsey.org/book_of_mormon.htm#_ednref29

The tone of this work has clearly been demonstrated with the nine pages I have posted in this thread.

One person had this to say about my Series on Mormonism:

Jodi, ex-Mormon wrote:"Rich's articles are such a wonderful read, he has done very thorough and impressive research on the LDS church, and its history.

It is refreshing to read something that isn't just angry bitter words which is what most non-Mormon articles seem to be. His article's present the facts with sound logic behind his statements.

As an ex-Mormon, I find myself enjoying his writings, I think it is because his articles come off as a relaxed conversation instead of somebody ranting about the LDS church; it's a new perspective."
My site:
http://richkelsey.org/index.htm
If you haven’t read my articles on Mormonism please go to the site and read them.

Rich Kelsey
_Jersey Girl
_Emeritus
Posts: 34407
Joined: Wed Oct 25, 2006 1:16 am

Re: Rich's Website

Post by _Jersey Girl »

Simon Belmont wrote:
Jersey Girl wrote:Belmont,

With all due respect, it is clear to me that you aren't well familiar with Criddle's work. The links that you extracted from Rich's website are not wordprint studies.

Criddle has conducted NO wordprint studies.

Are you aware of that?


You're right. I'm not familiar with Criddle's work -- only that he is a critic of my faith.

That was my whole point.

How many links does Rich provide that aren't hostile toward my faith?

Count them -- one (the Joseph Smith Papers).


Belmont,

I am also a critic of your church, not to be confused with your faith. There IS a difference.

And yet you would not describe me as anti-Mormon as you would Criddle?

Explain how you see that, please.
Failure is not falling down but refusing to get up.
Chinese Proverb
_Simon Belmont

Re: Rich's Website

Post by _Simon Belmont »

Jersey Girl wrote:
Belmont,

I am also a critic of your church, not to be confused with your faith. There IS a difference.

And yet you would not describe me as anti-Mormon as you would Criddle?

Explain how you see that, please.


Simple: the three "P"s. If you are engaged in any of them you are anti-Mormon (this is just my opinion).

Pamphleteering against The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints.
Protesting The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints.
Publishing against against The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints (on a blog, website, or an official publication).

Posting on MDB doesn't necessarily count.
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