Conscientious Alternative to Mormonism

[_Themis]

Yet somehow God is not talking to LDS including Monson, but he is supposedly talking to you. Well you think once.

That is one more time than you have. I understand that I'm making a mistake by responding to you since you don't believe in a real God that actually interacts with us and that you find the concept threatening (otherwise you wouldn't follow me from thread-to-thread making asinine comments). However, my concern isn't about whether or not you know there is a God since that is something you will discover in time. As for me, I'm satisfied there is a God and my interest is only in best understanding that God and I feel sorry for you that you can't do that.

I just like bringing up your inconsistencies. Like why did you supposedly get to see God when you were not seeking him, and everyone else who are do not get to.

[_Themis]

Yet somehow God is not talking to LDS including Monson, but he is supposedly talking to you. Well you think once.

Themis, why do you think God has not talked to Monson?

Tobin is the one who claims he has seen God. He does not think most if not all Mormons have including people like Monson. I don't think Monson or other leaders have since the evidence clearly shows the LDS church is not what it claims to be. Another words Joseph didn't see God. This does not mean there are not people like Tobin who think they have, but I think we can agree this probably didn't happen based on his posts and your own LDS beliefs. I have met a number of people who think God has spoken to them. Just don't get them together or you will have to break up a fight. At least the people who think they have seen aliens can get along better.

Now I don't claim God doesn't exist, although I recognize if he/she/they do, it won't be anything like the Christian God.

[_Themis]

Exactly. The point of Mormonism is to find out what God wants you to do. If that is being part of the LDS Church or not, it doesn't matter. Seeking, speaking with, and doing as God asks is what is important.

Tobin, I agree with that 100%.

Interact with tobin a little more and you may find that you don't agree with him as much as you think. He does not believe finding out is done by the spirit, but by God himself appearing before you.

[_KevinSim]

Please excuse me if I have misunderstood you. But surely the task is not to decide what attributes we personally feel comfortable about a supposed deity possessing (which is the aim your two paragraphs above seem to be based on), but to find a means of determining, in order of priority:

(a) whether any being remotely resembling our idea of a deity exists,

Chap, if by some miracle we do find a way to determine "whether any being remotely resembling our idea of a deity exists," and we apply that method and find out no deity does exist, what then? What would our consciences require us to do in that case?

I'm as curious as the next person. If there were some way of determining whether or not God exists, I'd like to hear what the outcome is. But I've been paying attention to this issue for a very long time, I've never heard of any suggestion to find out if God exists that makes any sense at all, and my intuition gives me the impression that it just may be impossible to find out whether God exists or not, unless and until God chooses to at some point make an entrance and prove the matter for once and for all.

In the meanwhile, what do our consciences demand that we do?

I think there's an analogue with the SETI question. Either extra-terrestrial intelligence, close enough to us that we can detect, exists or doesn't. I don't know of any scientific way to verify whether or not that extra-terrestrial intelligence actually exists. But obviously the SETI community is willing to gamble a lot of money and a lot of time on the assumption that some does actually exist and that we will eventually find it.

Similarly, in the absence of any good evidence one way or the other on the existence of God, we've got to decide, are we going to gamble that God exists, or are we going to gamble that God doesn't exist? That's kind of where we were in the discussion.

[_KevinSim]

Interact with tobin a little more and you may find that you don't agree with him as much as you think. He does not believe finding out is done by the spirit, but by God himself appearing before you.

Themis, thanks for the warning.

[_lulu]

I don't think the conscientious alternative is consensus.

That's why I said near consensus. Consensus is probably unrealistic. But there has to be some way for a group to make decisions without either gridlock or the danger of one person's influence overshadowing the whole process.

In view of the 6+ billion people currently kicking around planet earth (do you want to add in those from the past who might have had something germane to say on the point under discussion) I think your use of “near” and “probably” are distinctions without difference. There ain’t gonna be no consensus, probably or nearly.

I would gently suggest one go a different route.

For starters, I'm suggesting that you address the issue of every solution creates a problem.

Do I have to shell out my Westley/Buttercup Fire Swamp dialogue again?

It’s not my place to say what you do or don’t have to “shell out.” That’s for you alone to decide. But I would say that a heartwarming piece of dialogue from a favorite movie might not be the best place to start to build a (new?) world view.

The fact that every solution may in the past have created a problem does not mean that every solution has to create a problem. All that means is that in finding a solution to this particular problem we have to be very, very careful.

I’ve no objection to being very, very careful. But I would suggest some reality testing. You are suggesting that after thousands of years of human experience, something not known to have ever happened before, and with no one knowing how it might happen, is going to occur? Do you have some modicum of evidence, however small, that such a process is even possible? Wanting doesn’t make something so. That’s magical thinking.

Being unrealistic is a dangerous way to live. If you want to live that way, that’s your choice, it’s a free country. But to the extent that you can make being unrealistic affect others, I think it hurts them. I’ll do my best to prevent that way of thinking from having any impact on me and mine.

Make decisions, very, very carefully based on what is observable. And no, I don’t think that is cynical or pessimistic. I think it is realistic. And I don’t think cynical or pessimistic are the opposite of realistic. Magical thinking hurts people. That I think is the conscientious alternative. Since you asked.

[_Themis]

Chap, if by some miracle we do find a way to determine "whether any being remotely resembling our idea of a deity exists," and we apply that method and find out no deity does exist, what then? What would our consciences require us to do in that case?

I take it you don't really want to know. If God exists then follow what she says. If she says to do things you think are not good then question whether she really said it. If she doesn't say anything, then do what you think is best. If God doesn't exist, then do what you think is best.

I'm as curious as the next person. If there were some way of determining whether or not God exists, I'd like to hear what the outcome is. But I've been paying attention to this issue for a very long time, I've never heard of any suggestion to find out if God exists that makes any sense at all, and my intuition gives me the impression that it just may be impossible to find out whether God exists or not, unless and until God chooses to at some point make an entrance and prove the matter for once and for all.

God certainly is quiet and those who claim to have talked to God, they don't agree very well on what she is saying.

I think there's an analogue with the SETI question. Either extra-terrestrial intelligence, close enough to us that we can detect, exists or doesn't. I don't know of any scientific way to verify whether or not that extra-terrestrial intelligence actually exists. But obviously the SETI community is willing to gamble a lot of money and a lot of time on the assumption that some does actually exist and that we will eventually find it.

We put little time and resources into this possibility, and yes there are scientific possible ways to detect them if they exist.

Similarly, in the absence of any good evidence one way or the other on the existence of God, we've got to decide, are we going to gamble that God exists, or are we going to gamble that God doesn't exist? That's kind of where we were in the discussion.

Gamble on which God? There are so many even in Christianity. JW believe you have to gamble on them or you will cease to exist after death. If we go by which gives the worst results for not gambling on them then JW maybe the one to go with. LDS have it to good for those who don't gamble on them. It's not logical to go with any. You may as well just to live your life as best as you can and not worry about what you don't know. I wouldn't want to gamble on a God that punishes you for picking the wrong beliefs.

[_Tobin]

Interact with tobin a little more and you may find that you don't agree with him as much as you think. He does not believe finding out is done by the spirit, but by God himself appearing before you.

Themis, thanks for the warning.

Actually, Themis likes to mischaracterize my position. I know that God is real. To ultimately "know" that with absolute certainty what that truth is, one must seek, see and speak with God. I have been blessed with such an experience and have no doubts about there being a God. That is not the same as discovering other truths about God, the Gospel, or science, mathematics and so on. Since seeing God is not a daily occurance in my life (something I hope one day I'll be ready for though), I follow the principles that Christ outlines for learning the truth.
1) Employ reason and your prior experience and knowledge.
2) Study. Look at what others have said in the scriptures for example or other books, articles, etc relevant to the matter at hand.
3) Rely on inspiration from God to fill in the blanks. This can take many forms such as gifts from the Spirit, dreams, or even a solution suddenly occuring to you.
And bear in mind a few things about the truth. It is reasonable, understandable, and usually the simplist and most direct answer is usually the best and the truth.

[_Themis]

To ultimately "know" that with absolute certainty what that truth is, one must seek, see and speak with God.

According to your posts you never did seek, while all the ones who are don't get to see God.

[_Tobin]

To ultimately "know" that with absolute certainty what that truth is, one must seek, see and speak with God.

According to your posts you never did seek, while all the ones who are don't get to see God.

You still don't get it. I've always been interested in the truth Themis, no matter what I was doing. And being called of God is a two-way street. Man must be willing to seek the truth and believe it (defend it if necessary), but also God must choose to reveal himself. Man can make no demands of God and should not presume to.