Little girl has her mic turned off during F&T meeting

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_Lemmie
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Re: Little girl has her mic turned off during F&T meeting

Post by _Lemmie »

Sanctorian wrote:3. The church has a right to police its own culture.

With those points, I agree with the dog. However, the shock factor of an authoritative figure silencing anyone is the defining moment in this example. Had this been a teenage girl that took her girlfriend to prom last month and shared the same testimony and had the same mic turned off, we'd be having the exact same conversation about the church being bad for gays. Regardless of the girls age and whether or not we can accurately determine if she is full lesbian or not, the church and this particular leader eff'd up as a direct result of church policy regarding homosexuality by turning off the mic.

To prove my point, watch this video of a validictorian having his mic shut off by school administrators when he begins to criticize them. That's how you eff up and make yourself or your organization look bad and turn yourself into a viral video.

I agree about the church having a right to police its own culture, and you make very good points about how NOT to go about it!

I've mentioned in a number of cases like this that even though the church apparently has a first class PR company on retainer, they consistently make some very bad PR moves. That may very well be related to the fact that, at least in this case, it was an unpaid, non-full-time church leader who did this.

It's much easier, I would imagine, to control your image by making sure your full-time, well-paid work force toe the party line. Controlling every aspect of the volunteers' behavior is a much tougher situation.
_Chap
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Re: Little girl has her mic turned off during F&T meeting

Post by _Chap »

Sanctorian wrote:2. I also agree this girl has no idea what it means to be a lesbian. All she knows is she has a general attraction to girls over boys. I think it's hard to assign any real sort of sexual orientation until you actually start having sexual acts. What sort of porn gets you off. What do you fantasize about when you masturbate. What sort of sex do you like etc. Until you start performing sexual acts, simple attraction does not seem like a defining moment on your sexual journey.


The confidence with which you express yourself seems misplaced.

You have no idea what she knows. You have no idea whether she masturbates or not. If she does, you have no idea who or what she may or may not fantasise about.

But, as Jersey Girl has pointed out, research shows that teenagers and particularly teenage girls have often reached levels of development and regularly carry out activities that adults who think 'they are just kids' know nothing about.
Zadok:
I did not have a faith crisis. I discovered that the Church was having a truth crisis.
Maksutov:
That's the problem with this supernatural stuff, it doesn't really solve anything. It's a placeholder for ignorance.
_Xenophon
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Re: Little girl has her mic turned off during F&T meeting

Post by _Xenophon »

Chap wrote:The confidence with which you express yourself seems misplaced.

You have no idea what she knows. You have no idea whether she masturbates or not. If she does, you have no idea who or what she may or may not fantasise about.

But, as Jersey Girl has pointed out, research shows that teenagers and particularly teenage girls have often reached levels of development and regularly carry out activities that adults who think 'they are just kids' know nothing about.


I think this is what has bothered me most about the discussion around this story.

I'm willing to concede that Savannah may not "know" that she is gay. However I see no evidence to not take her at her word. She seems like an incredibly passionate and thoughtful young woman and I don't see why we would give benefit of the doubt to anyone over her. Until someone can show me why it is inconceivable for her to have the stance she does I'm inclined to err in her favor. I'm happy to change my opinion on this; does anyone have anything other than a "gut feeling" that she isn't being entirely forthcoming?

For clarification sake, I don't think anyone is trying to claim that at 12 she has everything figured out. Hell, I'm still learning things about myself into my 30's. That doesn't mean she can't have already begun to establish a solid framework of who she is as an individual.
"If you consider what are called the virtues in mankind, you will find their growth is assisted by education and cultivation." -Xenophon of Athens
_Doctor CamNC4Me
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Re: Little girl has her mic turned off during F&T meeting

Post by _Doctor CamNC4Me »

Water Dog wrote:No, Lemmie, there is just something wrong with you. Very wrong. You have nothing new to say but can't help saying something anyway, last word syndrome or something. CFR, CFR, CFR! You don't even know what means the way you toss it around. Much like the idiots that misuse "ad hominem." Have you read anything in this whole 14 page thread? What factual statements? You haven't "verified" any of your "factual" statements either... You say someone can "know" they are gay at 12. Ok, prove it. You CFR. You're a nitwit TBxM. I'm over here expressing skepticism about the Book of Mormon, and you're idiotic reaction is CFR! Uh, no, you've got it backwards. The one making the claim bears that burden of proof. "Prove it isn't true, prove it isn't true! God helped me find my car keys, you prove he didn't. You prove I can't know it's true." What is it you want me to CFR? You want me to prove a negative? You want me to prove that it hasn't been proven someone can or can't know they are gay at 12? LOL


This is just too good to not keep on retainer.

- Doc
In the face of madness, rationality has no power - Xiao Wang, US historiographer, 2287 AD.

Every record...falsified, every book rewritten...every statue...has been renamed or torn down, every date...altered...the process is continuing...minute by minute. History has stopped. Nothing exists except an endless present in which the Ideology is always right.
_Jersey Girl
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Re: Little girl has her mic turned off during F&T meeting

Post by _Jersey Girl »

Wading back in here.

Is the biological fact that girls enter puberty long before their male peers the reason for the mind block that some of the male posters are showing me here that suggests that a girl age 12 (she's actually 13 now) cannot know who she is attracted to?

Keeping in mind that who we are attracted to constitutes our sexual orientation.

Is it that males don't understand or recognize the sexual development of females and a female's ability to know her own mind?
Last edited by Google Feedfetcher on Wed Jun 21, 2017 4:52 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Failure is not falling down but refusing to get up.
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_Lemmie
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Re: Little girl has her mic turned off during F&T meeting

Post by _Lemmie »

Doctor CamNC4Me wrote:
Water Dog wrote:No, Lemmie, there is just something wrong with you. Very wrong. You have nothing new to say but can't help saying something anyway, last word syndrome or something. CFR, CFR, CFR! You don't even know what means the way you toss it around. Much like the idiots that misuse "ad hominem." Have you read anything in this whole 14 page thread? What factual statements? You haven't "verified" any of your "factual" statements either... You say someone can "know" they are gay at 12. Ok, prove it. You CFR. You're a nitwit TBxM. I'm over here expressing skepticism about the Book of Mormon, and you're idiotic reaction is CFR! Uh, no, you've got it backwards. The one making the claim bears that burden of proof. "Prove it isn't true, prove it isn't true! God helped me find my car keys, you prove he didn't. You prove I can't know it's true." What is it you want me to CFR? You want me to prove a negative? You want me to prove that it hasn't been proven someone can or can't know they are gay at 12? LOL


This is just too good to not keep on retainer.

- Doc

Thanks, Doc! It was a pretty entertaining, ridiculously incoherent rant. I especially liked how he explains how he's expressing skepticism for the Book of Mormon in a thread about a gay girl's testimony! And that the one making claims bears the burden of proof, except when he is the one making claims. :rolleyes:
_Lemmie
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Re: Little girl has her mic turned off during F&T meeting

Post by _Lemmie »

WD wrote:This is no different than interpreting the "holy ghost." Are you of the opinion that someone can stand up and say they "know" the church is true? I'm assuming the answer to that is a big fat NO. Ok... well why not? Why can't someone "know" the church is true?

So... knowing you are gay is the same as knowing the Mormon church is true, and neither is possible.

We have entered the nonsensical zone.
Last edited by Guest on Wed Jun 21, 2017 5:07 pm, edited 1 time in total.
_Xenophon
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Re: Little girl has her mic turned off during F&T meeting

Post by _Xenophon »

Water Dog wrote:A pretty big concession here. That's progress. A question for you. What if a 12 year old child said they were ready for alcohol? They "know" it? Or that they could safely drive a car? Or go sky diving on their own? What would you say? Here you go kid, here's a bottle of jack and the keys to my car...?


The examples you use as counters don't really hold weight. There is plenty of science to suggest that alcohol at that young of an age has detrimental effects to growth and development (not to mention the legal aspects). There are physical and legal limitations to driving and even a legal limit to skydiving (at least in my state, and it appears to mainly be driven by liability issues). None of the things you are comparing orientation to are biologically driven aspects of a human. Apples to oranges and all that.

To the rest of your post, you are again assuming that lots of private conversations have not happened. I agree that this is probably not how I would have handled this as the child's father, but I also wasn't there.

I think I agree with you and Sanctorian that the primary reason this was recorded was because the mother new what kind of reaction it would get. That said, it doesn't take away from the courage and beauty of Savannah's actions and motives.
"If you consider what are called the virtues in mankind, you will find their growth is assisted by education and cultivation." -Xenophon of Athens
_Jersey Girl
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Re: Little girl has her mic turned off during F&T meeting

Post by _Jersey Girl »

Water Dog wrote: A question for you. What if a 12 year old child said they were ready for alcohol? They "know" it? Or that they could safely drive a car? Or go sky diving on their own? What would you say? Here you go kid, here's a bottle of jack and the keys to my car...?


A question for you.

What if none of those options had not a thing to do with her biological make up?
Failure is not falling down but refusing to get up.
Chinese Proverb
_6EQUJ5
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Re: Little girl has her mic turned off during F&T meeting

Post by _6EQUJ5 »

Lemmie wrote:Thanks, Doc! It was a pretty entertaining, ridiculously incoherent rant. I especially liked how he explains how he's expressing skepticism for the Book of Mormon in a thread about a gay girl's testimony! And that the one making claims bears the burden of proof, except when he is the one making claims. :rolleyes:


Did you ever correct your claim about purple pants?
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