Joseph Smith & a LITERAL 3500 Year Old Abraham Autograph

[_ClarkGoble]

All of the evidence and the very words out of the mouth of Joseph Smith testify that the very papyrus had by the church was the very papyrus had by Abraham and was penned by his very own hand.

If Joseph thought writings of Abraham on it wouldn't it be a natural leap to assume it was written by Abraham? (Since Joseph didn't know how to date papyri) Put an other way, I always took for granted that was Joseph's belief. But never thought that belief mattered much.

[Guest]

There is no possible chance that the goddesses Isis and Maat that are labeled and portrayed in Facsimile No. 3, are really men dressing up for an Egyptian freak show as suggested by Hugh Nibley. Absolutely zero probability! .

Earnest question since I'm relatively ignorant here. But why? There are accounts of that happening during the resurgence of the Isis cult under Nero. I recognize that has no bearing on Abraham but you seem to be making a broader point about how this might be viewed in late antiquity from what I can tell.

It approaches zero probability since the images have text with them identifying the scene and we have the text of the papyri and the image in fac 1 identifying what the story is really about. Everything points to funerary rituals for the dead, and nothing points to something else as claimed by Joseph.

I should add fac 2 as it also helps to identify what the papyri is all about.

[_Themis]

All of the evidence and the very words out of the mouth of Joseph Smith testify that the very papyrus had by the church was the very papyrus had by Abraham and was penned by his very own hand.

If Joseph thought writings of Abraham on it wouldn't it be a natural leap to assume it was written by Abraham? (Since Joseph didn't know how to date papyri) Put an other way, I always took for granted that was Joseph's belief. But never thought that belief mattered much.

Why would Joseph believe the papyri had anything to do with Abraham?

[_Shulem]

There is no possible chance that the goddesses Isis and Maat that are labeled and portrayed in Facsimile No. 3, are really men dressing up for an Egyptian freak show as suggested by Hugh Nibley. Absolutely zero probability! .

Earnest question since I'm relatively ignorant here. But why? There are accounts of that happening during the resurgence of the Isis cult under Nero. I recognize that has no bearing on Abraham but you seem to be making a broader point about how this might be viewed in late antiquity from what I can tell.

The persons portrayed in the ACTUAL Facsimile No. 3 are inseparably connected with the hieroglyphic text labeling the persons and the persons bearing witness of the text -- thus the iconography is in harmony and justified. In more simple terms, imagine a picture of yourself with your name under it.

There. It's really that simple. The problem for Joseph Smith and the Mormons is he didn't know the persons in the picture or how to read the writing.

Nero? What does Nero have to do with Facsimile No. 3 and the funerary writing therein? My answer: Absolutely nothing. Just like Nero has nothing to do with a photo of Clark Goble with his name under it.

[_Shulem]

All of the evidence and the very words out of the mouth of Joseph Smith testify that the very papyrus had by the church was the very papyrus had by Abraham and was penned by his very own hand.

If Joseph thought writings of Abraham on it wouldn't it be a natural leap to assume it was written by Abraham? (Since Joseph didn't know how to date papyri) Put an other way, I always took for granted that was Joseph's belief. But never thought that belief mattered much.

Joseph Smith couldn't date the mummies either and his mother was an absolute nutcase -- a mummy contemporary to the time of Moses and king Necho . . . . for god's sake . . . .

Joseph Smith was a complete idiot and a conman.

[_Shulem]

Why would Joseph believe the papyri had anything to do with Abraham?

I don't think it was Joseph Smith's original idea taken out of thin air, per se. There were rumors and ideas of such thing running rampant and Joseph Smith got wind of it and capitalized on it when the Egyptian exhibit made its way to Kirtland. The Christians were merely trying to increase faith among their people and Smith took advantage of an opportunity that already existed.

See here:

Philadelphia U.S. Gazette April 1833

"The Largest collection of EGYPTIAN MUMMIES ever exhibited in this city, is now to be seen at the Masonic Hall, in the Chestnut Street above Seventh.

They were found in the vicinity of Thebes, by the celebrated traveler Antonio Lebolo and Chevalier Drovetti, General Consul of France in Egypt.

Some writings on Papyrus found with the Mummies, can also be seen, and will afford, no doubt, much satisfaction to Amateurs of Antiquities. ... We must ask attention to the exhibition of Mummies at the Masonic Hall. These old folks who flourished perhaps when Moses and Aaron were little boys, deserve some public attention. The rolls of papyrus, the hieroglyphics, the wrappers and other appliances are all exceedingly interesting"

Pennsylvania Daily Intelligencer April 1833

"A collection of nine bodies, said to have been found in the vicinity of Thebes, by the celebrated traveler Antonio Lebolo, and the Chevalier Drovetti, General Consul of France in Egypt, is now to be seen at the Masonic Hall, in Chestnut Street, above Seventh. Besides these, several rolls of Papyrus, obtained at the same time, are also exhibited. From the appearance of the mummies they must be of considerable antiquity."

Atkinson's Saturday Evening Post April 1833

"We must ask attention to the exhibition of Mummies at the Masonic Hall. These old folks who flourished perhaps when Moses and Aaron were little boys, deserve public attention. The rolls of papyrus, the hieroglyphics, the wrappers, and other appliances, are all exceedingly interesting."

Philadelphia Saturday Courier April 1833

"The ten Egyptian Mummies now exhibited at the Masonic Hall, have been inspected by several gentleman competent to judge them; and are pronounced to be genuine specimens of the relics of those who, 'walked about in Thebes' streets three thousand years ago.'"

[_Shulem]

It approaches zero probability since the images have text with them identifying the scene and we have the text of the papyri and the image in fac 1 identifying what the story is really about. Everything points to funerary rituals for the dead, and nothing points to something else as claimed by Joseph.

With regards to Facsimile No. 1 (to say nothing about the hieroglyphic writing surrounding the original papyrus) it's obvious that Joseph Smith had no idea what was really going on in that iconic funerary scene.

1. There are no shackles and no cords, Osirs is free.

2. The legs and feet are in the classic Egyptian pose, Osirs is blessed.

3. Anubis is blessing Osiris.

[_Themis]

Why would Joseph believe the papyri had anything to do with Abraham?

I don't think it was Joseph Smith's original idea taken out of thin air, per se. There were rumors and ideas of such thing running rampant and Joseph Smith got wind of it and capitalized on it when the Egyptian exhibit made its way to Kirtland. The Christians were merely trying to increase faith among their people and Smith took advantage of an opportunity that already existed.

I agree that Joseph was again taking ideas from his environment and making claims that they come from God. How does Joseph get revelation/translation that would have him making such proclamations and God not doing anything to correct him? Did God actually give him the Abraham story knowing he was going to attach it to documents having nothing to do with Abraham? Supposedly Joseph could get the Book of Mormon story of over 500 pages in 2-3 months.

[_Shulem]

Say what you like. The figure which Joseph Smith identifies as the "slave" is not an image of Anubis, nor is it functioning as Anubis in the image that is displayed.

Zerinus, will you apply your personal interpretation of Egyptology to Facsimile no. 2 Fig. 7? In other words, is the following statement consistent with your apologetic? I'm curious about what you think about Abraham painting a picture of Jehovah's phallus. It seem that the church has had some problem with this in the past while portraying Facsimile No. 2 in previous additions of the Pearl of Great Price.

"The figure which Joseph Smith identifies as "God" is not an image of Min, nor is it functioning as Min in the image that is displayed."

[_Shulem]

Joseph Smith is on record for revealing through his Ghost that the hieroglyphics contained on the papyrus were actual records penned by ancient Abraham and his grandson, Joseph. In fact, he even claimed patriarchal signatures were had on the very documents that god so graciously preserved through millennia, kept in Egyptian tombs for the sole purpose of Jehovah and his future Mormons.



I have some questions, NOT for zerinus because he's a COWARD, but for Joseph Smith himself. Yes, I call Joseph Smith to the witness stand:

1. Is the personage in Fig 7 sitting upon the throne a depiction of the anthropomorphic Bible God in whom you worship?
[ ] Yes
[ ] No

2. Is the person on the throne revealing sacred key words that pertain to the Hebrew priesthood rather than the Egyptian priesthood?
[ ] Yes
[ ] No

3. Is that the same Holy Ghost appearing before the throne that appeared at Jesus' baptism?
[ ] Yes
[ ] No

4. Is it true that the implement shaded in RED is the actual erect phallus of Abraham's god?
[ ] Yes
[ ] No

5. Please testify, Joseph Smith, what do you think of the RED implement that protrudes from the crotch of the man sitting on the throne. Tell the church what he is doing with it. It should be at least as important as the so-called key words of the priesthood, right?

Drum roll . . . .