Nelsons daughter and son-in-law accused of sex abuse

[_Rosebud]

As for how to tell which therapists are actually implanting false memories, i'm still waiting to see documentation. So far, in what I've read, Barbara Snow did a good job with having witnesses at the interviews of the children and making video recordings. Those records can be analyzed for leading questions, children's behaviors can be coded, etc.

[_Lemmie]

So far, in what I've read, Barbara Snow did a good job with having witnesses at the interviews of the children and making video recordings.

Not according to this item in your chronology:

2002 September 18th, - Deseret News Article, Derek Jensen. “Inmate is still adamant abuse conviction off-base”
https://www.deseretnews.com/article/937 ... -base.html

According to Bullock, in September 1985 when it appeared Bullock and his wife at the time were likely to win custody, the ex-spouse took the children to Dr. Barbara Snow, a therapist with the Intermountain Sexual Abuse Treatment Center.

Before long, Snow was spearheading the investigation into the alleged abuse, which she told police was rampant in the neighborhood. Bullock was eventually charged with abusing four boys when they were 6 or 7 years old.

Snow did not take notes or record any of her interviews with the children, and police found no physical evidence of the alleged abuse, according to court records.

A recent 10th Circuit Court of Appeals opinion, while denying Bullock's request for a new trial, dubbed Snow's interview techniques "dubious."

"The quest for the truth in sexual abuse cases is always difficult, particularly when the prosecution's case heavily relies upon the testimony of young victims. In this case, Dr. Snow's disturbing and irresponsible conduct has made this quest especially difficult," the court concluded in its decision. "We do not know whether Dr. Snow still counsels children or testifies as a prosecution witness in sexual abuse cases; if she does either, we hope that she now follows proper professional and ethical standards."

In a 1989 Utah Supreme Court dissenting opinion, Justice Daniel Stewart penned a scathing diatribe of Snow's techniques, calling her failure to record or take notes of her interviews "highly unreliable."

[_Rosebud]

Here's the wiki article on memory implantation:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Memory_implantation

Doesn't seem like it would be too difficult from a psychology perspective. If you know how to influence people, you can get them to believe all sorts of false things. (Look at the church, for example.) Some people are very very suggestible. Others' reactions to certain stimuli and suggestions can be observed for short periods of time. Then, all you have to do is pass them the stimulus you want and you get the behavior or belief you anticipated. Behavioral psychology is very powerful. This happens on message boards all the time. Some people's posts are almost completely predictable because they're hitting every ball that is pitched to them without thought.

But people uncovering traumatic experiences are generally in a lot of emotional pain. They're terrified and are often hysterical while remembering. Their emotions and experiences while coping with what they're remembering say a lot. I've witnessed enough of it. I'd never insult someone going through that by looking them in the eye and telling them it was all impossible because adults aren't ever that evil.

[_Rosebud]

(Or by telling them that their therapist implanted it all... sheesh.)

[_Lemmie]

I'd never insult someone going through that by looking them in the eye and telling them it was all impossible because adults aren't ever that evil.

In the context of this thread, do you think someone is doing or would do that?

[_Doctor CamNC4Me]

How do you come to determine which ones were abused and which ones weren't?

- Doc

From a therapist's perspective, that would probably be decided based on the symptoms of the client and the way the client behaved in session, while having the memories and after the memories.

I wonder if kids are coached to lie by a parent if therapists can sniff that out or do they just roll with whatever is being said. I suppose it'd depend on each therapist and how much experience they have or how professional they are (or professionally trained).

Therapists are also on the lookout for psychosis and psychotic disorders like schizophrenia. If a person is displaying symptoms of schizophrenia or other psychotic disorders, a therapist would likely wonder about the neruo-biological contributors and what environmental factors got the person to that point, but wouldn't believe much the person said about reality.

So, if a kid claims they were abused, but the suffer from some sort of mental illness they won't be believed by the therapist?

The therapist probably wouldn't completely rule out severe trauma and abuse, but wouldn't place too much stock on details or accusations.

Yeah, but they have reporting requirements. If the kid said their dad raped them or beat them then the therapist must report. That's a tricky situation they find themselves in.

Psychotic people are generally constantly accusing everybody.

From a legal or prosecution perspective, you can't tell them apart. It's not enough to claim somebody abused you in the past and you didn't remember that before but now you do. If courts accepted that as evidence we'd have a whole slew of mentally ill people taking their relatives to court. That would be a waste of judges' time and taxpayer money.

Therapists know this and do what they can to help their clients as they can. From a therapist's perspective, it's about healing and moving forward, not about taking somebody from the past to court -- especially if you don't have evidence.

So, for the therapist, the most important question is not necessarily, "Is this true?" Rather, it would be more like, "How can you recover from what you're experiencing right now so that you can move forward with better functioning in your life?"

And then... putting adequate child protection policies in place to protect other children from the kinds of reports the therapists hear, regardless of assumptions about veracity.

Well, I was actually how YOU would know whether or not an event recovered in therapy was true or not. I kind of feel like you're waffling a bit, and you're also on shaky ground saying in effect, "Sometimes it's true and sometimes it's not. Sometimes memories are accurate and sometimes they're not. Sometimes therapists do the right thing and other times they don't."

And yet, based off that kind of angle you suggest safeguards are in place that protect the children. That kind of raised my eyebrows a bit. What kinds of safeguards do you suggest should be in place to protect them when they're in their homes with their families?

- Doc

[_Rosebud]

When I wrote that post, I was thinking about adults, not kids. Kids are a whole different ball of wax.

I don't know what else to give anyone besides that every situation and interaction is different. It is. The most obviously false claims are the "every memory of abuse that occurred during childhood is false." Or, the reverse of that: "every memory of abuse that occurred during childhood is true."

The most accurate thing about what I'm saying is its inconclusiveness. Some people sure seem to "know" a lot of things about what happened in other people's pasts that would be impossible for any outsider to know (if you get what I mean).

Anyway, backtracking a bit... since I wasn't talking about children and you were... what is it that I'm not answering well enough right now? I'm a bit confused about where the conversation has gone since we were referring to two very different populations.

[_cinepro]

It looks like there's another current connection to the era of moral panic over "recovered memories" and "ritual abuse."

Apparently there is a spiritual guru from Utah named "Teal Swan".

Gizmodo has a six-part series about her.

The Gateway: Teal Swan

Part five investigates the connection between Teal Swan and...Barbara Snow.

Swan claims that she was a victim of Satanic ritual abuse — memories of which she claims she repressed and later recovered with the help of a therapist in Salt Lake City, Utah, who encouraged her to go to the police to open an investigation in 2005. Swan’s claims include that she was once sewn into a corpse by a Mormon Satanic cult.

However, that investigation came to a halt when it was discovered that Swan’s therapist (pictured above) was at the center of several nearly identical — and similarly questionable — allegations of Satanic ritual abuse in Utah during the throes of the Satanic Panic.

You must listen to that podcast (episode #5) if you want to understand how Barbara Snow does what she does.

[_Rosebud]

Doc....

Regarding kids being coached to lie: Yes, this happens a lot. Poor kids. Most people that work with kids a lot can pick up on it. But how to prove what was and wasn't said to a child while a professional wasn't in the room? That's a hard one. I don't know much about it.

Psychotic disorders aren't usually diagnosed until at least adolescence.

Yes, mandatory reporting is required. But often the government agencies in charge of investigations are underfunded and poorly staffed. A child can't usually be taken from parents without some sort of concrete evidence. Often there is concrete evidence. Sometimes abused children go from abusive homes to abusive foster homes. It's a mess of messes. Often abusive parents get to keep custody because there isn't concrete evidence.

In divorce situations, guardian ad litems are assigned to investigate. But sometimes they make their recommendations based on hunches.

When I read Marion Smith's report my thought is that those kids were very lucky to have a smart, well put together grandmother. Most kids don't fare that well. Looks like the adults in their lives even prioritized correctly and kept them out of the court system while they were little. They made sure to get them away from the predators immediately.

There's a lot that's positive in that document.

[Guest]

It looks like there's another current connection to the era of moral panic over "recovered memories" and "ritual abuse."

Apparently there is a spiritual guru from Utah named "Teal Swan".

Gizmodo has a six-part series about her.

The Gateway: Teal Swan

Part five investigates the connection between Teal Swan and...Barbara Snow.

Swan claims that she was a victim of Satanic ritual abuse — memories of which she claims she repressed and later recovered with the help of a therapist in Salt Lake City, Utah, who encouraged her to go to the police to open an investigation in 2005. Swan’s claims include that she was once sewn into a corpse by a Mormon Satanic cult.

However, that investigation came to a halt when it was discovered that Swan’s therapist (pictured above) was at the center of several nearly identical — and similarly questionable — allegations of Satanic ritual abuse in Utah during the throes of the Satanic Panic.

You must listen to that podcast (episode #5) if you want to understand how Barbara Snow does what she does.

At some point, I"m hoping Barbara Snow will tell us what Barbara Snow does. She's alive and well and has a licensed practice in Foothill Village on Foothill Drive in Salt Lake City.