Happy Birthday President Nelson!

[MG 2.0]

The whole episode was evil. That doesn’t negate in any way everything else I’ve said.

Of course it does. Up until now you've been blaming the circumstances, the tensions, the history, the fog of war, and the Baker–Fancher party. You want to spread the blame around to everywhere but where it belongs. Not until explicitly challenged are you willing to call it what it was.

And the fact is, we don’t know for sure what part prayer and ACTUAL answers had to play. I would be interested in whether you might be able to give any firsthand affidavit from one of the perpetrators who said that God had ordered them to attack the Fancher party.

Of course we know what part prayer and actual answers had to play. Do you really think that God-fearing Mormons would have slaughtered an entire community of people without praying about it first? Do you think they would have acted without receiving what they thought was an answer? Surely the Holy Ghost was there to guide them in their quest. Certainly God himself would not have turned his back on such a request.


According to John D. Lee, Cedar City Stake President Isaac Haight opened the council meeting with a prayer:

“Haight then prayed, asking the Lord to direct them in this thing, that they might do His will. He prayed that if it was right to let the emigrants go in peace, they might be influenced so to act; but if it was the will of God that they should be destroyed, that the Spirit of the Almighty would so indicate.”

Lee said that after this prayer, the council concluded that the Spirit confirmed destruction was God’s will. Haight then told the militia that to disobey was to invite the curse of God. (Mormonism Unveiled, 1877, p 233.)


One of the participants, Nephi Johnson, also said they had prayed and received divine sanction:

“They told us they had sought the Lord in prayer, and the answer was that the emigrants must die.” (Juanita Brooks, The Mountain Meadows Massacre, 1950, p 131.)

What we do know, like I said, is that tensions were high and miscommunication and misunderstanding ruled the day. Emotions definitely got the better of those that killed innocent victims including children.

You don't murder a whole wagon train over misunderstandings. You're making excuses for what was pure and naked evil.

Nephi Johnson fell for it as he followed John D. Lee in the massacre. Later in life he felt miserable anbout having participated. That seems to hint that prayer didn’t play a part in sanctioning the massacre. According to Richard Turley, John D. Lee was trying very hard to cover his ass as he was in danger of execution. He tried to make it look like it was a divinely sanctioned action even though when he found out two days after the massacre that Brigham Young directed them to let the Fancher party go in peace it was too late. He had everything to gain by passing the buck. The question is whether or not he passed the buck onto God.

If so, he’s gonna have to pay the uttermost farthing on that methinks.

I’m going to have to pass on any more deeper knowledge on this topic. I didn’t study it in depth back in the day when I was reading everything and anything about church history. I didn’t explore this a whole lot. It was the lessor of my worries at the time.

Now it doesn’t concern me as much except for the fact that is a very low point in LDS church history. A series of unfortunate events.

Regards,
MG

[Limnor]

Of course we know what part prayer and actual answers had to play. Do you really think that God-fearing Mormons would have slaughtered an entire community of people without praying about it first? Do you think they would have acted without receiving what they thought was an answer? Surely the Holy Ghost was there to guide them in their quest. Certainly God himself would not have turned his back on such a request.


According to John D. Lee, Cedar City Stake President Isaac Haight opened the council meeting with a prayer:

“Haight then prayed, asking the Lord to direct them in this thing, that they might do His will. He prayed that if it was right to let the emigrants go in peace, they might be influenced so to act; but if it was the will of God that they should be destroyed, that the Spirit of the Almighty would so indicate.”

Lee said that after this prayer, the council concluded that the Spirit confirmed destruction was God’s will. Haight then told the militia that to disobey was to invite the curse of God. (Mormonism Unveiled, 1877, p 233.)


One of the participants, Nephi Johnson, also said they had prayed and received divine sanction:

“They told us they had sought the Lord in prayer, and the answer was that the emigrants must die.” (Juanita Brooks, The Mountain Meadows Massacre, 1950, p 131.)

This is new to me. Thank you.

[Morley]

According to Richard Turley, John D. Lee was trying very hard to cover his ass as he was in danger of execution. He tried to make it look like it was a divinely sanctioned action even though when he found out two days after the massacre that Brigham Young directed them to let the Fancher party go in peace it was too late. He had everything to gain by passing the buck. The question is whether or not he passed the buck onto God.

Ha! Turley would never have used the word "ass."

You know very well that Lee wasn't--as you would say--passing the buck onto God. It's kind of crappy for you to suggest that. It was Young and Haight and other leaders in the massacre that Lee implicated. Even then, Lee only did so after Brigham had made him the scapegoat for the whole mess. I believe that even Turley maintains that Lee was scapegoated.

If so, he’s gonna have to pay the uttermost farthing on that methinks.

Apparently, the LDS Church disagrees with you. They rescinded Lee's excommunication.

Now it doesn’t concern me as much except for the fact that is a very low point in LDS church history. A series of unfortunate events.

Yeah, and terrorists piloting planes into the World Trade Center was really just a series of unfortunate events. A low point in Islamic history. That's certainly one way putting it.


Anyway, you've never addressed this part. Do you discount the very strong probability that the militia fervently prayed to God for guidance before they butchered all those folks...like, you know...the witnesses maintained that they did?

[I Have Questions]

According to Richard Turley, John D. Lee was trying very hard to cover his ass as he was in danger of execution.

What is your source for Turley, and what is Turley’s source for making that assumption?

[I Have Questions]

Of course we know what part prayer and actual answers had to play. Do you really think that God-fearing Mormons would have slaughtered an entire community of people without praying about it first? Do you think they would have acted without receiving what they thought was an answer? Surely the Holy Ghost was there to guide them in their quest. Certainly God himself would not have turned his back on such a request.


According to John D. Lee, Cedar City Stake President Isaac Haight opened the council meeting with a prayer:

“Haight then prayed, asking the Lord to direct them in this thing, that they might do His will. He prayed that if it was right to let the emigrants go in peace, they might be influenced so to act; but if it was the will of God that they should be destroyed, that the Spirit of the Almighty would so indicate.”

Lee said that after this prayer, the council concluded that the Spirit confirmed destruction was God’s will. Haight then told the militia that to disobey was to invite the curse of God. (Mormonism Unveiled, 1877, p 233.)


One of the participants, Nephi Johnson, also said they had prayed and received divine sanction:

“They told us they had sought the Lord in prayer, and the answer was that the emigrants must die.” (Juanita Brooks, The Mountain Meadows Massacre, 1950, p 131.)

That’s comprehensive and well-sourced. It’s very damning witness testimony as far as the notion of “divine inspiration” is concerned.

[MG 2.0]

Do you discount the very strong probability that the militia fervently prayed to God for guidance before they butchered all those folks...like, you know...the witnesses maintained that they did?

What evidence we have seems to point towards the strong possibility that prayer and religious justification were at least part of the narrative given by some of the participants in the MMM.

Regards,
MG

[I Have Questions]

Do you discount the very strong probability that the militia fervently prayed to God for guidance before they butchered all those folks...like, you know...the witnesses maintained that they did?

What evidence we have seems to point towards the strong possibility that prayer and religious justification were at least part of the narrative given by some of the participants in the MMM.

That’s vague, mealy mouthed, and with an absence of sources. It’s an inadequate response to Morley’s solid evidence that, as in the murder of Laban, the Mormons involved believed Mormon God inspired the murderers of the Mountain Meadows Massacre. In fact, the story of Nephi and Laban might very well have been part of the inspiration for it - the message being that murder is okay if you think God wants you to do it.

Now here’s the dilemma (assuming you believe Nephi and Laban were real people). If you conclude that the perpetrators of the Mountain Meadows Massacre were not influenced by God, but that they were in some way deceived or deluded. Then you have to accept that Neohi could also have been deceived or deluded. And also today’s Prophets and Apostles can be deceived and deluded.

[Limnor]

Do you discount the very strong probability that the militia fervently prayed to God for guidance before they butchered all those folks...like, you know...the witnesses maintained that they did?

What evidence we have seems to point towards the strong possibility that prayer and religious justification were at least part of the narrative given by some of the participants in the MMM.

Regards,
MG

This is an odd statement. For clarification, by narrative do you mean “the story witnesses (Lee, Klingensmith, Hamblin) told” as confession and justification?

If that’s what you mean, then it isn’t a “possibility,” it’s a “fact” that they presented that narrative. In that narrative, prayer is factually described as part of the decision-making.

Did you mean: “the evidence includes statements that prayer and religious justification were in fact part of the narrative given by some of the participants in the MMM. There is a “possibility” that those statements reflect the truth.”?

[Morley]

Do you discount the very strong probability that the militia fervently prayed to God for guidance before they butchered all those folks...like, you know...the witnesses maintained that they did?

What evidence we have seems to point towards the strong possibility that prayer and religious justification were at least part of the narrative given by some of the participants in the MMM.

Regards,
MG

Thank you for the acknowledgment.

I think malkie's implied point was that all of these believing, practicing Mormons obviously prayed--and either God didn't care enough to answer in order to save lives of the party (and the reputation of the church)--or God did indeed answer, but not one person in the Utah Territory heard him and acted in time. Either way, Mormonism, as the 'one true faith on face the Earth,' didn't acquit itself very well.

Who was at fault? God? Or the prophets*? Or was it both? All righteous members have the gift of the Holy Ghost. Where was he, that not one person involved heard his urgings; this in a matter that was so vitally important?




*Plural: Since each of the 15 is a prophet.

[MG 2.0]

What evidence we have seems to point towards the strong possibility that prayer and religious justification were at least part of the narrative given by some of the participants in the MMM.

Regards,
MG

Thank you for the acknowledgment.

I think malkie's implied point was that all of these believing, practicing Mormons obviously prayed--and either God didn't care enough to answer in order to save lives of the party (and the reputation of the church)--or God did indeed answer, but not one person in the Utah Territory heard him and acted in time. Either way, Mormonism, as the 'one true faith on face the Earth,' didn't acquit itself very well.

Who was at fault? God? Or the prophets*? Or was it both? All righteous members have the gift of the Holy Ghost. Where was he, that not one person involved heard his urgings; this in a matter that was so vitally important?




*Plural: Since each of the 15 is a prophet.

Richard Turley believes that the prayer narratives may have been used as post-hoc rationalizations rather than genuine revelations. He also takes the approach that rather than resolving a theological dilemma directly, that we might reframe the question by looking at the massacre not a 'test' of God's intervention, but of human agency and institutional responsibility. In other words, God was not responsible for the breakdown in agency among those that committed the massacre as a result of some of the factors mentioned earlier.

Regards,
MG