Dynasitc Marriages-Doctrinal Question

[_harmony]

In a way I think Charity has a point.

Once they got there. Getting there was difficult in the extreme and resulted in so much death and deprivation.

The LDS Church did flourish in the west albeit under great hardships and duress, some of their own making and some not. Even without polygamy, the seperatist attitude, gathering of the Saints, the political power that this brought wherever they lived and the millenialist attitude fostered by the doctrine of gathering to Zion all worked to make it very difficult for the saints to be accepted by their neighbors.

I didn't say polygamy was the only reason they were thrown out of Nauvoo. It was simply the most prominent. And it was the most unfair reason, since the rank and file of the church (in Nauvoo) did not participate, yet they bore the brunt of the backlash against the Abomination.

A faithful member listened to the leaders repeatedly telling them there was no basis for the rumors, yet when the mobs came, it wasn't just the leaders that were thrown out. It was virtually everyone. It wasn't just the leaders who suffered and died; it was virtually everyone.

The lesson? God will not be mocked. Be very sure that the man you're following is following God, because sure as God made little green apples, God will not be mocked.

The LDS Church would never have survived had they stayed in the areas where there were a lot of others. Of course Polygamy about killed the Church even though it was isolated. But they still needed the 40 years in a wilderness where they are the majority to grow and prosper. I think they might have grown better without the polygamy. It is beyond the disputable evidence to argue that polygamy was not almost the end of the Church. That is why Pres Woodruff gave it up and JFS stomped it out. Then realizing if they did not give up the provincial separatist attitude that gathering to Zion brought the Church would not flourish they made many changes and moved from being a pariah to becoming America, mom and apple pie in a short 50 years after that.

The church would be bigger today, if we didn't have to carry the albatross of the Abomination around with us. We still carry the shame, even though it's not longer enforced. Too many investigators see Sec 132 and know it for what it is and are unable to see that even though that revelation is manmade, the church has value. Joseph really has a lot to answer for.

[_Jason Bourne]

Charity--

Do you see plural marriage being reinstated, and, do you think that things would be better if it was?

I don't think it will. But that is just my fallible opinion. I don't know what the difference is in terms of men who will be worthy of exaltation and women who will be. In my ward, and every ward I have been in, faithful LDS women outnumber faithful LDS men. So, in terms of every woman who is worthy for exaltation being sealed to a worthy man, some men are going to have to have more than one wife. But that could easily be taken care of in the next phase of existence.

Financially, there isn't a need now. Single women can support themselves. This was more difficult in the 1880's.

If it were revealed that the Church would be asked to live the law of plural marriage, of course it would be better. The Lord only gives commandments for the benefit of His children, even when we don't understand why.

Based on historical fact plural marriage was not good for the LDS Church. Had they continued it the Church would have been destroyed.

[_ludwigm]

Yes, it is possible to detect the Holy Ghost. There are millions of witnesses to it.

More like billions.
;-)
~dancer~

Milliards for me. I am european.

Hehe.

[_ludwigm]

[MODERATOR NOTE: Thread moved by Dr. Shades due to a Terrestrial "feel" to it that has arisen.]

Feel?

Burning in the bosom? No-no!

[_harmony]

[MODERATOR NOTE: Thread moved by Dr. Shades due to a Terrestrial "feel" to it that has arisen.]

Feel?

Burning in the bosom? No-no!

Heartburn by any other name is just as nauseating.

[_the road to hana]

The Church moved away from the source of persecution, and outside the rule of the United States, which failed miserably in extending the protections of the Constituition to the Saints. For 40 years, when left alone, the Church prospered. greatly. They spread throughout the intermountain west, with numerous prosperous settlements.

Are you suggesting that the LDS Church would be, or would have been, better off without being part of the United States?

Charity, it's comments like these that didn't help the cause of candidate Mitt Romney, because it makes the LDS Church look like it advocates theocracy.

[_Jason Bourne]

*sigh* charity, surely you understand that the deprivation, starvation, and death that was a direct result of being thrown out of Nauvoo in the middle of the winter, the appalling conditions at Winter Quarters, the horrendous experience of the trek west has nothing to do with population and growth rates in 1890. Don't you? Polygamy was one of the main reasons the Saints were forced out of Nauvoo; the rank and file members had nothing to do with that, but they were forced out along with the ones who were deeply involved and lying about it. Try as you may, there is no way around that. Calling that period of time a "blessing" is despicable.

Sorry Harmony. While polygamy may have contributed some it was not the main reason. THere were only vague rumors. The rumors added fuel to the fire. but even without it the saints would have been driven from Nauvoo and Joseph Smith murdered.

[_Jason Bourne]

In a way I think Charity has a point. The LDS Church did flourish in the west albeit under great hardships and duress, some of their own making and some not. Even without polygamy, the seperatist attitude, gathering of the Saints, the political power that this brought wherever they lived and the millenialist attitude fostered by the doctrine of gathering to Zion all worked to make it very difficult for the saints to be accepted by their neighbors.

The LDS Church would never have survived had they stayed in the areas where there were a lot of others. Of course Polygamy about killed the Church even though it was isolated. But they still needed the 40 years in a wilderness where they are the majority to grow and prosper. I think they might have grown better without the polygamy. It is beyond the disputable evidence to argue that polygamy was not almost the end of the Church. That is why Pres Woodruff gave it up and JFS stomped it out. Then realizing if they did not give up the provincial separatist attitude that gathering to Zion brought the Church would not flourish they made many changes and moved from being a pariah to becoming America, mom and apple pie in a short 50 years after that.

Hey Jason,
While I agree that often movements begin by small groups separating from the larger culture, here is the thing.

What would have happened if the early LDS leaders did NOT engage in their alternative form of partnering?

They would not have been persecuted, the HG could have inspired them to leave on better terms, with more preparation, during the summer, with lots of planning, without the hardship. They would have been free from the sorrows of having their homes destroyed, their children frozen to death, their property destroyed.

Some members look at the past and believe it is God's will without realizing that the idea that God required such a horrible situation does not speak well of a decent, kind, loving, or even remotely caring God.

The more I think about it the more Harmony's point speaks to common sense and reality.

While I do not believe a divine man/being/God had anything to do with it, again, I do believe that (for the most part), loving, healthy, "good" actions, behaviors, and thoughts equate to healthy, loving, and good outcomes. Conversely, when one hurts, demeans, manipulates, coerces, lies, cheats, abuses children, degrades women, gets caught up in ego issues, etc. etc. the results and consequences of such behavior are not so great.

And, for those who believe in a personal God directing His chosen church, isn't is EXTREMELY limiting to believe God would not have the ability to bring forth his one and only true church without causing children to freeze to death, homes to be destroyed, and families to be kicked out of their homes?

In other words, if God can create a universe, I would just sort of think he could find a way to bring forth his church in more humane ways. :-)


~dancer~

TD

The facts are simple. The saints already had problems with their neighbors. Look at Missouri. There was no polygamy then. The issues that caused problems from the LDS side I have listed. Of course there was also religous bigotry and fear from those who persecuted the Saints. The same issues came to play in Nauvoo. Plural marriage was only a small factor at that point and maybe was extra wood to an already burning flame.

So no, Harmony is not correct that plural marriage was the main reason for the expulsion from Nauvoo.

She is correct that it casued major problems for the Saints in its relations with the US government and population at large over the next 50 years.

[_Jason Bourne]

I didn't say polygamy was the only reason they were thrown out of Nauvoo. It was simply the most prominent. And it was the most unfair reason, since the rank and file of the church (in Nauvoo) did not participate, yet they bore the brunt of the backlash against the Abomination.

This is not correct. It was not the most prominent at all. People were not even that sure it happened. Yes Law and the Expositor led to Smith's death. But the other reasons I listed are the main reasons they were driven out.

[_Yoda]

*sigh* charity, surely you understand that the deprivation, starvation, and death that was a direct result of being thrown out of Nauvoo in the middle of the winter, the appalling conditions at Winter Quarters, the horrendous experience of the trek west has nothing to do with population and growth rates in 1890. Don't you? Polygamy was one of the main reasons the Saints were forced out of Nauvoo; the rank and file members had nothing to do with that, but they were forced out along with the ones who were deeply involved and lying about it. Try as you may, there is no way around that. Calling that period of time a "blessing" is despicable.

Sorry Harmony. While polygamy may have contributed some it was not the main reason. THere were only vague rumors. The rumors added fuel to the fire. but even without it the saints would have been driven from Nauvoo and Joseph Smith murdered.

It seems to me, though, that polygamy was certainly a catalyst for a lot of what happened, though. After all, if Joseph hadn't destroyed the printing press, they wouldn't have had a viable reason to imprison him. And, he was destroying the printing press because of the article about to be released regarding his polygamy and polyandry. Joseph's being in prison, and subsequently killed, weakened the Saints considerably against the mobs.