Dynasitc Marriages-Doctrinal Question

[_harmony]

Sorry Harmony. While polygamy may have contributed some it was not the main reason. THere were only vague rumors. The rumors added fuel to the fire. but even without it the saints would have been driven from Nauvoo and Joseph Smith murdered.

I don't think so, Jason. William Law was prepared to print the truth about Joseph's marital peccadillos. That led to the destruction of the press. The destruction of the press led to Joseph's arrest. To say they were vague rumors is to seriously downplay what was happening. Vague rumors would have been ignored, not addressed in the newspaper and from the pulpit. Vague rumors would not have resulted in the article on marriage in the Book of Commandments. The leadership was in damage control mode because the rumors were not vague, and they were poisoning the rank and file of the church.

I only state what I see, and what I see is that the Abomination directly led to the Joseph's imprisonment. And without him being in jail, there would have been no murder that day. There might have been his murder on a different day, but not on that day. They might have been driven from Nauvoo no matter what, but it wouldn't have been in the middle of winter.

God will not be mocked. The Saints' suffering in that period of time was a direct result of the Abomination. And the rank and file who were not involved, who believed their leaders, suffered the most when God withdrew his protection.

[_harmony]

I didn't say polygamy was the only reason they were thrown out of Nauvoo. It was simply the most prominent. And it was the most unfair reason, since the rank and file of the church (in Nauvoo) did not participate, yet they bore the brunt of the backlash against the Abomination.

This is not correct. It was not the most prominent at all. People were not even that sure it happened. Yes Law and the Expositor led to Smith's death. But the other reasons I listed are the main reasons they were driven out.

It was the most prominent reason that Joseph was killed. And with Joseph dead, the Saints were lambs for the wolves.

[_Jason Bourne]

Are you suggesting that the LDS Church would be, or would have been, better off without being part of the United States?

Charity, it's comments like these that didn't help the cause of candidate Mitt Romney, because it makes the LDS Church look like it advocates theocracy.

At that time is was a theocracy and wanted to be one. THe council of 50 was set up to establish the politcal Kingdom of God. When BY stated settling the Great Basin of the US he proposes the State of Deseret. It would have encompassed all of Utah, Nevada, Arizona, some of California, Colorado and New Mexico. It would have been larger than Texas and would could have been a nation state.

Of course the US gov rejected that idea and the Church stared pushing for statehood. Eventually the political Kingdom of God idea was abandon.

[_truth dancer]

Yeah, I'm with Harmony on this.

Polygamy was most certainly at the root of a lot of the problems in my opinion.

Go back when Joseph Smith first had his affair with Fanny.

Think of the path the church took once Joseph Smith engaged in his extra marital relationships. Think of the lies, the power issues, the secrecy, the coercion, the manipulation, the rumor spreading.

Now, I'm not saying that neighbors were happy with the LDS church and there were no other problems but it seems to me that at the core of much of it was polygamy.

I get the sense, (and I'm certainly NOT an expert, still...) that if the church were a quiet group of law abiding folks there would not have been near the difficulties.

Continuing on with Harmony's theory here...

Isn't it true that the church teaches that if one engages in adultery they no longer are entitled to the spirit?

Could it be that once Joseph Smith started his affair he was left on his own? The spirit left him?

It really does make a lot of sense to me.

~dancer~

[_BishopRic]

Yeah, I'm with Harmony on this.

Polygamy was most certainly at the root of a lot of the problems in my opinion.

Go back when Joseph Smith first had his affair with Fanny.

Think of the path the church took once Joseph Smith engaged in his extra marital relationships. Think of the lies, the power issues, the secrecy, the coercion, the manipulation, the rumor spreading.

Now, I'm not saying that neighbors were happy with the LDS church and there were no other problems but it seems to me that at the core of much of it was polygamy.

I agree with this, although I don't think it is possible to really know. It's like if I meet a person that I know is a criminal, it taints my approach to him in all ways. I think it's possible many that knew about Joe's affairs might look at everything he said and take it with a big grain of salt.

I get the sense, (and I'm certainly NOT an expert, still...) that if the church were a quiet group of law abiding folks there would not have been near the difficulties.

Continuing on with Harmony's theory here...

Isn't it true that the church teaches that if one engages in adultery they no longer are entitled to the spirit?

Could it be that once Joseph Smith started his affair he was left on his own? The spirit left him?

It really does make a lot of sense to me.

~dancer~

There is a growing body of people that believe this (I think he was a liar from the beginning, but that's just me), and thus the quiet revolution about the church going forward without the black and white belief in all of Joseph's claims is natural, in my opinion. I see the possibility, over a long period of time, of the church transitioning to an institution with positive teachings of "stories," not necessarily historical, that are self-help and motivational. Also, it can be an avenue for service and fellowship. I see the dogma being minimized with so much evidence against the truth claims...

Of course...I could be wrong.

[_charity]

I know what drives your agenda. You hate the idea of plural marriage. And you will twist any fact you can find to fit your agenda. That you cannot see the growth of the Church before and after the Manifesto as being essentially the same shows that you cannot objectively evaluate evidence.

You said the Saints were blessed for following polygamy. I showed where they were not. If anything, they were cursed.

You did not do anything to prove that polygamy caused any of the problems they had. The Saints were forced out of Palmyra, Kirtland, and Missouri long before they had to leave Nauvoo "because" of polygamy. Wherever the Saints are, there is going to be pesecution. Just the times change and it is called by different names.

The problems of living in pioneer times were shared by many. I did not have Mormon pioneers in my history, but a few years later, my great grandmother, as a child, and her family cross the plains going to California. They suffered the same things.

My daughter applied for position as psychiatric intake aide at a hospital in Texas a few years ago. Of course, her resume included the informaiton that she had her degree from Brigham Young University and had 2 years experience as a psychatric intake aide at Utah Valley Hospital. She didn't get the job, which went to a person with no college degree and no prior experience. The personnel director said it was because, "a lot of the staff would be uncomfortable working with a Mormon." Modern days.

Did you notice my post about the Puritans? Times were hard! And it wasn't caused by polygamy.

About blessings. God's blessings aren't counted in fancy houses, easy living, and the acceptance of the world.

[_BishopRic]

I know what drives your agenda. You hate the idea of plural marriage. And you will twist any fact you can find to fit your agenda. That you cannot see the growth of the Church before and after the Manifesto as being essentially the same shows that you cannot objectively evaluate evidence.

You said the Saints were blessed for following polygamy. I showed where they were not. If anything, they were cursed.

You did not do anything to prove that polygamy caused any of the problems they had. The Saints were forced out of Palmyra, Kirtland, and Missouri long before they had to leave Nauvoo "because" of polygamy. Wherever the Saints are, there is going to be pesecution. Just the times change and it is called by different names.

The problems of living in pioneer times were shared by many. I did not have Mormon pioneers in my history, but a few years later, my great grandmother, as a child, and her family cross the plains going to California. They suffered the same things.

My daughter applied for position as psychiatric intake aide at a hospital in Texas a few years ago. Of course, her resume included the informaiton that she had her degree from Brigham Young University and had 2 years experience as a psychatric intake aide at Utah Valley Hospital. She didn't get the job, which went to a person with no college degree and no prior experience. The personnel director said it was because, "a lot of the staff would be uncomfortable working with a Mormon." Modern days.

Did you notice my post about the Puritans? Times were hard! And it wasn't caused by polygamy.

About blessings. God's blessings aren't counted in fancy houses, easy living, and the acceptance of the world.

Gotta love the Mormon victim attitude. I had it once.

[_charity]

There is a growing body of people that believe this (I think he was a liar from the beginning, but that's just me), and thus the quiet revolution about the church going forward without the black and white belief in all of Joseph's claims is natural, in my opinion. I see the possibility, over a long period of time, of the church transitioning to an institution with positive teachings of "stories," not necessarily historical, that are self-help and motivational. Also, it can be an avenue for service and fellowship. I see the dogma being minimized with so much evidence against the truth claims...

Of course...I could be wrong.

Of course, you are.

So, why do you think that those who knew Joseph Smith the best, worked with him everyday, followed him as they were chased from place to place to place did so if they thuoght he had an affair and lost the spiriti? They were in a better position to know you any of you. They didn't think so. I go with first person witnesses, rather than arm chair sleuths 160 years later. But that's just me.

And I don't see any change in the core of the Church. There are fringers, there always are. They either get back to the core or they leave completely. This time the Church is not going to fall into apostacy.

[_charity]

I know what drives your agenda. You hate the idea of plural marriage. And you will twist any fact you can find to fit your agenda. That you cannot see the growth of the Church before and after the Manifesto as being essentially the same shows that you cannot objectively evaluate evidence.

You said the Saints were blessed for following polygamy. I showed where they were not. If anything, they were cursed.

You did not do anything to prove that polygamy caused any of the problems they had. The Saints were forced out of Palmyra, Kirtland, and Missouri long before they had to leave Nauvoo "because" of polygamy. Wherever the Saints are, there is going to be pesecution. Just the times change and it is called by different names.

The problems of living in pioneer times were shared by many. I did not have Mormon pioneers in my history, but a few years later, my great grandmother, as a child, and her family cross the plains going to California. They suffered the same things.

My daughter applied for position as psychiatric intake aide at a hospital in Texas a few years ago. Of course, her resume included the informaiton that she had her degree from Brigham Young University and had 2 years experience as a psychatric intake aide at Utah Valley Hospital. She didn't get the job, which went to a person with no college degree and no prior experience. The personnel director said it was because, "a lot of the staff would be uncomfortable working with a Mormon." Modern days.

Did you notice my post about the Puritans? Times were hard! And it wasn't caused by polygamy.

About blessings. God's blessings aren't counted in fancy houses, easy living, and the acceptance of the world.

Gotta love the Mormon victim attitude. I had it once.

You know you might say you are paranoid, but there might really be people out to get you. You think it has nothing to do with persecution if people won't hire you for a job you are well qualified for just because you are Mormon?

[_BishopRic]

There is a growing body of people that believe this (I think he was a liar from the beginning, but that's just me), and thus the quiet revolution about the church going forward without the black and white belief in all of Joseph's claims is natural, in my opinion. I see the possibility, over a long period of time, of the church transitioning to an institution with positive teachings of "stories," not necessarily historical, that are self-help and motivational. Also, it can be an avenue for service and fellowship. I see the dogma being minimized with so much evidence against the truth claims...

Of course...I could be wrong.

Of course, you are.

So, why do you think that those who knew Joseph Smith the best, worked with him everyday, followed him as they were chased from place to place to place did so if they thuoght he had an affair and lost the spiriti?

Simple. The same reason Jones and Koresh' followers stuck by him to the bitter end. As a psychologist Charity, I would think you'd understand the attachment to the shepherd mentality.