A Very Limited Geography

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_Themis
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Re: A Very Limited Geography

Post by _Themis »

stemelbow wrote:Again I believe you are overstating it again. No one knows where it originated. There are plenty of theories about it, but no one really knows, definitively. There very well could be a common geographical origin for both Siberian X group Haplotypes and NA X group Haplotypes. The timing of the migration is in question. I admit the resultant theories about when it all happened, when it all occurred, and what people have concluded and continue to conclude is not a good fit for the Book of Mormon narrative. But since there is tons of questions regarding that dating, including many of the assumptions underlying it, I simply leave it to the experts to hash out. For now, there’s a slight mark resting in the critics score board.



I think in the end you underestimate what they do know and how much agreement there is, and I am not saying everything is abslute or being debated. The x halotype timing of migration I am not aware extends anywhere close to Book of Mormon times, so I think it very unlikely to happen.
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_Baker
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Re: A Very Limited Geography

Post by _Baker »

"Hebrew University geneticist Howard Cedar stated: "Researchers still don't know what the history is behind the variations. As a result, it is difficult to draw conclusions about genetic affinity."30 Not one of the modern Near Eastern "regional affiliation" haplotypes has been demonstrated to have been prevalent in Israelite populations before the Babylonian captivity."

How can that conclusion be drawn unless there is some evidence of what was prevalent in Israelite populations before the Babylonian captivity? Do you really think there is no point of reference?
"I have more to boast of than ever any man had. I am the only man that has ever been able to keep a whole church together since the days of Adam. ... Neither Paul, John, Peter, nor Jesus ever did it. I boast that no man ever did such a work as I." - Joseph Smith, 1844
_Buffalo
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Re: A Very Limited Geography

Post by _Buffalo »

Parley P. Pratt wrote:We must lie to support brother Joseph, it is our duty to do so.

B.R. McConkie, © Intellectual Reserve wrote:There are those who say that revealed religion and organic evolution can be harmonized. This is both false and devilish.
_Kishkumen
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Re: A Very Limited Geography

Post by _Kishkumen »

Dr. Ostrer noted, "The study supports the idea of a Jewish people linked by a shared genetic history. Yet the admixture with European people explains why so many European and Syrian Jews have blue eyes and blonde hair. "
"Petition wasn’t meant to start a witch hunt as I’ve said 6000 times." ~ Hanna Seariac, LDS apologist
_Simon Southerton
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Re: A Very Limited Geography

Post by _Simon Southerton »

Stemelbow has been quoting the following paragraphs from Dr (medical) David Stewart in an attempt to convince trusting Mormons reading this thread that the X lineage may well have come into the Americas with Lehi. In fact Stewart argues that the A,B,C,D and X lineages all came into the Americas with Lehi and the hemispheric model is correct. This is the quote.

“Many scientists date the genetic divergence of modern Native Americans as having arisen from migrations between 10,000 and 15,000 B.C, rather than shortly after 600 B.C. as stated in the Book of Mormon account. Mitochondrial studies of New World DNA have led to vastly discrepant estimates of time of divergence. Ann Gibbons reports: "All this disagreement prompts [Stanford University linguist Dr. Joseph] Greenberg to simply ignore the new mtDNA data. He says: 'Every time, it seems to come to a different conclusion. I've just tended to set aside the mtDNA evidence. I'll wait until they get their act together.'"47

Martin Tanner explains:
"The idea [that] haplogroup X has been in the Americas for 10 to 35 thousand years is based solely upon the assumptions of the Hardy-Weinberg equilibrium, which include: (1) completely neutral variants, (2) no mutation, (3) no migration, (4) constant near infinite population size, and (5) completely random mate choice. In the Book of Mormon account, most of the Hardy-Weinberg equilibrium assumptions are inapplicable. The wilderness journey, the ocean voyage, and the colonization of the New World, result in patterns of genetic selection and DNA migration different from that found in Lehi's home environment. Closely related individuals married and we are dealing with [initially] a very small group, not a nearly infinite population which would dramatically alter DNA marker distribution and inheritance over time. If we take these assumptions about haplogroup X instead of the Hardy-Weinberg assumptions, haplogroup X could have been introduced into the Americas as recently as one to two thousand years ago, far less than the ten to thirty-five thousand years under the Hardy-Weinberg assumptions."48


The first paragraph contains a quote from Joseph Greenberg (ref 47), a prominent linguist whose theories have been influential (and controversial) for decades. The DNA evidence has been used to seriously challenge some of his central linguistic claims. Greenberg died in 2001 aged 86. The quote was first published in 1996. So Stewart is backing up one of his key apologetic arguments with the outdated words of an 80-year old professor defending his life's work. Nice one Dr Stewart.

The second paragraph is intriguing. Who is this Martin Tanner character who uses impressive words like “neutral variant” and “Hardy-Weinberg equilibrium”? You could be excused for thinking you are reading the words of a competent population geneticist. Interestingly, there is another version of this David Stewart rant where he starts this paragraph with “LDS apologist Martin Tanner explains". I wonder why there is even a version with "LDS apologist" missing?

So instead of outdated quotes from disgruntled professors and unqualified apologists, here are some recent quotes from active research scientists within peer-reviewed research articles.

Perego et al. 2009 Current Biology 19, 1–8. (Perego is a Mormon)

..we completely sequenced and analyzed a large number of mtDNAs belonging to the rare and poorly known haplogroups D4h3 and X2a, revealing that each marked a distinct entry path from Beringia, which contributed to the formation of Paleo-Indians.

Even when standard errors are considered, the largely overlapping sequence divergences observed for haplogroups D4h3 and X2a indicate a concomitant or very close temporal expansion of the two haplogroups, from either the same Beringian source population or different yet related Beringian sources.

Haplogroup D4h3 spread into the Americas along the Pacific coast, whereas X2a entered through the ice-free corridor between the Laurentide and Cordilleran ice sheets.

Fagundes et al. 2008 American Journal of Human Genetics 82, 583–592.
Here we show, by using 86 complete mitochondrial genomes, that all Native American haplogroups, including haplogroup X, were part of a single founding population, thereby refuting multiple migration models. A detailed demographic history of the mtDNA sequences estimated with a Bayesian coalescent method indicates a complex model for the peopling of the Americas, in which the initial differentiation from Asian populations ended with a moderate bottleneck in Beringia during the last glacial maximum (LGM), around ~23,000 to ~19,000 years ago.

Perego’s team calculated the time to the most recent common ancestor for American Indian X lineages to be 14,200 years ago. Fagundes’ estimate was 18-21,000 years ago.

I am sure Perego would love to talk to any apologists still hanging on to the X lineage.
LDS apologetics --> "It's not the crime, it's the cover-up, which creates the scandal."
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_Doctor CamNC4Me
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Re: A Very Limited Geography

Post by _Doctor CamNC4Me »

Hello,

A point of interest to me is the ability of some people to read Dr. Southerton's comments and still maintain their conviction in Mormonism's claims. The moment I read his exit story explaining the very subject being covered on this thread I was done with Mormonism:

http://www.exmormon.org/whylft125.htm

I understand the desire to maintain one's belief system in the face of evidence to the contrary, but there's a fine line between faith in the Divine (or its incorporated entity), and making a complete and utter jackass of yourself.

It baffles me as to how relatively intelligent men & women can read what is so plain, so clear, and come down on the other side of the issue. Thank you Dr. Southerton for lighting a candle in the dark and helping so many souls see Mormonism for what it is.

Thank you.

V/R
Dr. Cam
In the face of madness, rationality has no power - Xiao Wang, US historiographer, 2287 AD.

Every record...falsified, every book rewritten...every statue...has been renamed or torn down, every date...altered...the process is continuing...minute by minute. History has stopped. Nothing exists except an endless present in which the Ideology is always right.
_Simon Belmont

Re: A Very Limited Geography

Post by _Simon Belmont »

Doctor CamNC4Me wrote:The moment I read his exit story explaining the very subject being covered on this thread I was done with Mormonism:


That convinced you? Wow!
_Kishkumen
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Re: A Very Limited Geography

Post by _Kishkumen »

Simon Belmont wrote:That convinced you? Wow!


Given your record of inane, uninformed, and confused comments on this board, you have absolutely no room to talk. None.
"Petition wasn’t meant to start a witch hunt as I’ve said 6000 times." ~ Hanna Seariac, LDS apologist
_Milesius
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Re: A Very Limited Geography

Post by _Milesius »

harmony wrote:
Kishkumen wrote:Believing in Nephites is akin to believing in any other myth for which there is no evidence outside of human opinion.


That would be... belief that a man named Abraham existed.


No, it wouldn't.
Caeli enarrant gloriam Dei
_Doctor CamNC4Me
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Re: A Very Limited Geography

Post by _Doctor CamNC4Me »

Simon Belmont wrote:
Doctor CamNC4Me wrote:The moment I read his exit story explaining the very subject being covered on this thread I was done with Mormonism:


That convinced you? Wow!


Hello Mr. Simon,

No, that was just the final, incontrovertible straw that broke this particular camel's back. And thank god it did. Additionally, if you read Dr. Southerton's exit story it's a very good take on your typical ex-Mormon's process of leaving the Mormon church.

That said, my issues with Mormonism were the same ones anyone else has had. Having been born and raised in a devout Mormon household produced in me a desire to stay far longer than I should've stayed, but it was people like Dr. Southerton who shared their similar takes on their faith that opened my eyes to the reality of Mormonism.

I don't have a problem with people who enjoy their faith, but I do have a problem with people who lie, obfuscate, minimize, or excuse patently fraudulent behaviors and ideas. I do think having a spiritual foundation in one's life, whatever you determine that to be, is healthy for the human condition, but to defend something in the manner in which, for example, Mopologists defend their faith is the antithesis of healthy spirituality, in my opinion.

The manner in which Mopologists carry the water for an organization that'd turn on them in a heartbeat is baffling. Why do I say that? Well, look at what happens when a Mormon decides to be honest with himself about his faith. They're ostracized. That's insecurity on the part of Mormons or Mormonism in general, and that's just silly.

Additionally, to witness the mental contortions in order to accommodate, say, Mr. Smith's liaisons with women and girls who weren't, you know, his wife, is an exercise in astounding moral ineptitude. Just as Mopologists throw Brigham Young under the bus for his outrageous claims and behaviors, they should do the same to Mr. Smith, but for some reason they feel the need to fall on their swords for him. I just don't get that kind of martyrdom. I really don't.

V/R
Dr. Cam
In the face of madness, rationality has no power - Xiao Wang, US historiographer, 2287 AD.

Every record...falsified, every book rewritten...every statue...has been renamed or torn down, every date...altered...the process is continuing...minute by minute. History has stopped. Nothing exists except an endless present in which the Ideology is always right.
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