Joseph Smith wrote witnesses statement

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_Chap
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Re: Joseph Smith wrote witnesses statement

Post by _Chap »

gdemetz wrote:The simple fact is that his quote from God was only to separate. ...


Nope. God is also quoted as promising to pay back the LDS for the way he was being persecuted. God said this to him:

.... told me to "separate myself from among the Latter Day Saints, for as they sought to do unto me, should it be done unto them."


And what (according to God) the LDS "sought to do unto" him sounds pretty serious:

I had been striving with them for a long time to show them the errors into which they were drifting, and for my labors I received only persecutions. In June, 1838, at Far West, Mo., a secret organization was formed, Doctor Avard being put in as the leader of the band; a certain oath was to be administered to all the brethern to bind them to support the heads of the church in everything they should teach. All who refused to take this oath were considered dissenters from the church, and certain things were to be done concerning these dissenters, by Dr. Avard's secret band. I make no farther statements now; but suffice it to say that my persecutions, for trying to show them their errors, became of such a nature that I had to leave the Latter Day Saints;
Zadok:
I did not have a faith crisis. I discovered that the Church was having a truth crisis.
Maksutov:
That's the problem with this supernatural stuff, it doesn't really solve anything. It's a placeholder for ignorance.
_gdemetz
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Re: Joseph Smith wrote witnesses statement

Post by _gdemetz »

"As they ought to do to me," sound like FAIR is correct. It sounds like he was concerned about physically separating for safety. Anyhow, I do not have great faith in anything an apostate says. However, he could have received great power and fame by stating that the whole witness thing was a fraud, but he didn't! Consider that! Also, consider all the other witnesses!

Darth, I noticed that you didn't bring up any seeming Biblical contradictions. That tells me something. Anyway, concerning the seeming contradiction you mentioned, D&C correctly states that David and Solomon did not sin in taking so many wives since they had the authority to do so. However, it was the overuse of that authority which was an abomination to God.
_Chap
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Re: Joseph Smith wrote witnesses statement

Post by _Chap »

gdemetz wrote:... Anyhow, I do not have great faith in anything an apostate says. ...


So if what Whitmer says is favorable to the position of the LDS church headquartered in Salt Lake City he is credible as a witness. But if what Whitmer says is not favorable to the position of the LDS church headquartered in Salt Lake City he is not credible as a witness.

Wouldn't it be simpler just to say "The church is true" in response to anything a critic says?
Zadok:
I did not have a faith crisis. I discovered that the Church was having a truth crisis.
Maksutov:
That's the problem with this supernatural stuff, it doesn't really solve anything. It's a placeholder for ignorance.
_marg
_Emeritus
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Re: Joseph Smith wrote witnesses statement

Post by _marg »

gdemetz wrote:"As they ought to do to me," sound like FAIR is correct. It sounds like he was concerned about physically separating for safety. Anyhow, I do not have great faith in anything an apostate says. However, he could have received great power and fame by stating that the whole witness thing was a fraud, but he didn't! Consider that! Also, consider all the other witnesses!


You are not reading the words within the context of the entire Address to Believers in Christ.

Besides this quote which Darth has noted in which it makes mention God called him out in the same voice as per the Book of Mormon If you believe my testimony to the Book of Mormon; if you believe that God spake to us three witnesses by his own voice from the heavens, and told me to "separate myself from among the Latter Day Saints, for as they sought to do unto me, should it be done unto them."

I make no farther statements now; but suffice it to say that my persecutions, for trying to show them their errors, became of such a nature that I had to leave the Latter Day Saints; and, as I rode on horseback out of Far West, in June, 1838, the voice of God from heaven spake to me as I have stated above. I was called out to hold the authority which God gave to me
.


David Whitmer also says the following in the same address a paragraph or 2 later:

Many of the Reorganized Church have wondered why I have stood apart from them. Brethren, I here will tell you why. God commanded me by his own voice to stand apart from you. Many of you think that I have desire to lead -- to lead a church that believe as I do. I have no such desire. A one-man leader to the church is not the teachings of Christ. After Brother Joseph was killed, many came to me and importuned me to come out and be their leader; but I refused. With these statements, so you will understand me, I will proceed to show you how the heads of the church went into one error after another. I followed them into many errors in doctrine, which the Lord has since shown me, and which errors I have confessed and repented of, and will speak of in this pamphlet.

>>>
Concerning the question of my authority to administer in the ordinances of the Church of Christ; I have this to say; As I have stated, I was called out to hold the authority that God gave to me.


Note he wasn't being persecuted by the Reorganized Church quite the opposite, he was asked by some to lead it. According to him God called him out and didn't want him joining/leading that church. According to him God does not want any men to be his mouth piece. According to David Whitmer when men speak for God ..which both his old LDS church did via Joseph Smith and the new Reorganized one did...they lead followers into error.

He makes it clear in the address that the reason God spoke to him..was because the LDS church was in error over a number of issues. That was the point of the address.

You write: "Anyhow, I do not have great faith in anything an apostate says.

You are picking and choosing when to conclude David Whitmer is a reliable credible witness and when he is a liar..with regards to God speaking to him. He is a credible reliable witness when he says God spoke to him and it is in accord with your religious faith beliefs ..but he's a liar when it goes against your beliefs.
_gdemetz
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Re: Joseph Smith wrote witnesses statement

Post by _gdemetz »

You guys are just grasping for straws here! Whitmer was an apostate anyway, but he still never denied that! What about all the other witnesses who bore the same witness!
_gdemetz
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Re: Joseph Smith wrote witnesses statement

Post by _gdemetz »

Marj, that is all the quote, and just exactly when did he receive that alleged revelation? You guys are grasping at straws!
_Doctor CamNC4Me
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Re: Joseph Smith wrote witnesses statement

Post by _Doctor CamNC4Me »

gdemetz wrote:... Anyhow, I do not have great faith in anything an apostate says. ...


Irony at its best. Joseph Smith himself was an apostate from the Methodist church.

- VRDRC
In the face of madness, rationality has no power - Xiao Wang, US historiographer, 2287 AD.

Every record...falsified, every book rewritten...every statue...has been renamed or torn down, every date...altered...the process is continuing...minute by minute. History has stopped. Nothing exists except an endless present in which the Ideology is always right.
_ludwigm
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Re: Joseph Smith wrote witnesses statement

Post by _ludwigm »

Doctor CamNC4Me wrote:
gdemetz wrote:... Anyhow, I do not have great faith in anything an apostate says. ...
Irony at its best. Joseph Smith himself was an apostate from the Methodist church.

- VRDRC

In Joseph Smith's time near every member was apostate. And became apostle, prophet, seer and revelator.

From http://www.LDS.org/churchhistory/presid ... pic=events
(LDS Home - Church History - History of the Church - Presidents of the Church - John Taylor - Significant Events) :
Historical Summary
1808 November 1 Born in Milnthorpe, Westmorland, England, to James Taylor and Agnes Taylor.
1819 Age 11 Moved with family to Hale (near Milnthorpe), where he helped work on a small farm left to his father by an uncle.
1822 Age 14 Apprenticed as a cooper (barrel maker) in Liverpool, England. Within a year, his master's business failed and he returned home.
1824 Age 16 Left the Church of England and became a Methodist.
1825 Age 17 Became Methodist “exhorter,” or lay preacher. Received a strong impression that he would go to America to preach the gospel.
1832 Age 24 Left England for Canada and commenced preaching.
1833–1836 Age 25–28 Served as preacher in the Methodist Church in Toronto, Canada.
1836 May 9 Age 27 Baptized by Parley P. Pratt.
1836–1837 Age 28–29 Served as the Church's presiding officer in Canada.
1837 Age 29 Moved to Far West, Missouri.
1837 March Age 28 Met the Prophet Joseph Smith in Kirtland, Ohio.
1838 December 19 Age 30 Ordained an Apostle at Far West, Missouri, by Brigham Young and Heber C. Kimball under the direction of Joseph Smith, who was in Liberty Jail.

Two year from apostatizing from Methodist Church to become an apostle...

One beau ideal. There is a Hungarian saying about changing longjohn and conviction at once.


...........................................
Today, most of the converts around the world are apostates from different christian churches.
1. Please evaluate the word "christian" in the broadest sense
2. Interestingly, one can find very little from muslims, jews and buddhists.
- Whenever a poet or preacher, chief or wizard spouts gibberish, the human race spends centuries deciphering the message. - Umberto Eco
- To assert that the earth revolves around the sun is as erroneous as to claim that Jesus was not born of a virgin. - Cardinal Bellarmine at the trial of Galilei
_Drifting
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Re: Joseph Smith wrote witnesses statement

Post by _Drifting »

gdemetz wrote:the Church is true!
“We look to not only the spiritual but also the temporal, and we believe that a person who is impoverished temporally cannot blossom spiritually.”
Keith McMullin - Counsellor in Presiding Bishopric

"One, two, three...let's go shopping!"
Thomas S Monson - Prophet, Seer, Revelator
_Drifting
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Re: Joseph Smith wrote witnesses statement

Post by _Drifting »

gdemetz wrote:Marj, the Church is true!
“We look to not only the spiritual but also the temporal, and we believe that a person who is impoverished temporally cannot blossom spiritually.”
Keith McMullin - Counsellor in Presiding Bishopric

"One, two, three...let's go shopping!"
Thomas S Monson - Prophet, Seer, Revelator
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