Joseph Smith & a LITERAL 3500 Year Old Abraham Autograph

[_zerinus]

If we are after actual knowledge then these issues become relevant. If we are looking to find out if Joseph Smith was prophetically accurate this is fundamentally irrelevant because of what he himself and many others said about the papyri, which we now know is just wrong. Joseph Smith made many claims that have not panned out with actual Egyptological knowledge. To a believing Mormon and the Book of Abraham that is all that matters. Even under inspiration (again, definitely claimed God Himself informed them), they got it wrong, which means so did God. That is the basis of my failure to continue accepting what Joseph Smith said about anything concerning the papyri or Abraham. It's guess work, and he was wrong. . . .

There is one other test we can apply. There is the Book of Abraham itself, I mean the the large piece of English text published in the Pearl of Great Price. It is around 11 pages long in my book, excluding the illustrations. We can read that, and affirm by the Holy Spirit that it is of God, it is true. That establishes Joseph Smith as a true prophet without a doubt, and the work that he did genuine, true, and of God. Now having determined that without a doubt, when we are confronted with contradictory claims made by modern scholars and Egyptologists, the solution is not to dismiss Joseph Smith without further thought, but to question the claims and assumptions of the scholars and Egyptologists. Do they really know as much as they think they know, or are there gaps in their knowledge which they may not be aware of, and they think they know more than they really know? That is my way of handling the issue. I trust the knowledge that is given to me by God.

[_Lemmie]

Now having determined that without a doubt, when we are confronted with contradictory claims made by modern scholars and Egyptologists, the solution is not to dismiss Joseph Smith without further thought, but to question the claims and assumptions of the scholars and Egyptologists.

Why does your solution not include questioning the claims and assumptions of Joseph Smith? If you don't then you are admitting you are starting your investigation by assuming the conclusions you want to prove, a meaningless exercise.

[_Shulem]

There is one other test we can apply. There is the Book of Abraham itself, I mean the the large piece of English text published in the Pearl of Great Price. It is around 11 pages long in my book

The fabricated chapters of the Book of Abraham are UnEgyptian as are the Facsimile Explanations. Anachronisms and made up Egyptian concepts contradict science and Egyptology. It's religious fiction written by a man (Joseph Smith) who knew nothing about ancient Egypt other than what he read in his KJV Bible and other source available to him such as Josephus and pseudepigrapha.

excluding the illustrations

Joseph Smith's usage of the "illustrations" is utter sacrilege. He blasphemed the Egyptian temple and gods. There is no greater offense that any one could commit against the ancient Egyptians. Joseph Smith committed the ultimate sin against ancient Egypt. Mormons today as a people share in his sacrilege.

We can read that, and affirm by the Holy Spirit that it is of God, it is true.

Been there done that and I know that the impressions of the Mormon Ghost misapplied feelings used to prove anything you want to believe.

That establishes Joseph Smith as a true prophet without a doubt, and the work that he did genuine, true, and of God.

Feelings one get from the Mormon Ghost while contemplating Smith's claim are not scientific but are mumble jumble cult impressions one gets from praying and thinking about what they want in life. It has nothing to do with mathematics or Egyptology. It's creative thinking spawned by the brain induced chemicals and endorphins.

Now having determined that without a doubt, when we are confronted with contradictory claims made by modern scholars and Egyptologists, the solution is not to dismiss Joseph Smith without further thought, but to question the claims and assumptions of the scholars and Egyptologists.

Joseph Smith's psuedo-Egyptian claims may be safely dismissed as nonsense. Egyptology is in keeping with basic scientific principles to include mathematics and collective evidence that creates a pattern that is logical and consistent. Joseph Smith's Egyptology is chaos. Smith came along and tried to reinvent history which he knew nothing about. He was an ignorant conman.

Do they really know as much as they think they know, or are there gaps in their knowledge which they may not be aware of, and they think they know more than they really know?

The groundwork of Egyptology is smart and precise, using only scientific principles and methods to interpret history. Any gaps in Egyptology are nothing like the one proposed by Joseph Smith -- utter nonsense and creative thinking from a man who knew nothing about the Egyptian religion, history, and culture. Smith made a mockery of every single thing he ever said about ancient Egypt in the Book of Abraham. He mocked the ancient gods and took their sacred writings and iconography and littered Mormon garbage all over it.

That is my way of handling the issue. I trust the knowledge that is given to me by God.

You share in Joseph Smith's lies. The Ghost of Mormonism is foolishness. Illogical and unscientific Mormon claims cannot change true history. All it can do is maintain your testimony which is based on a lie.You have closed your mind and take Joseph Smith's word on faith because you felt your brain chemicals give you a little high -- thus the Ghost was more or less causing spiritual intoxication.

You're a Mormon drunk. The Book of Abraham is Mormon alcohol.

[_Shulem]

Now having determined that without a doubt, when we are confronted with contradictory claims made by modern scholars and Egyptologists, the solution is not to dismiss Joseph Smith without further thought, but to question the claims and assumptions of the scholars and Egyptologists.

Why does your solution not include questioning the claims and assumptions of Joseph Smith? If you don't then you are admitting you are starting your investigation by assuming the conclusions you want to prove, a meaningless exercise.

Mormons are spiritually drunk. It's all about saving Joseph Smith at any cost. They can't handle the sober facts. They can't handle the idea of getting off their spiritual alcohol which is the Ghost of Mormonism making impressions in their minds. zerinus has become the board drunk. All he does is bear testimony like a drunken Mormon. He can't walk a straight line and apply science and logic. He's trapped in the drunken state put on him by his cult.

Poor drunken zerinus. The Ghost of Mormonism controls him and leads him by the hand. From time time he starts to laugh like a drunk because he's simply overwhelmed. Logic and reason are like poison to his testimony.

[_Shulem]

question the claims and assumptions of the scholars and Egyptologists.

Said the snake oil salesman (zerinus) who thinks the earth is flat.

Modern Egyptology CLAIMS that a king's name is contained in a royal cartouche. The Rosetta Stone is key to this simple FACT and the EVIDENCE of the tombs proves it so.

The Facsimile No. 3 writing doesn't contain a royal cartouche or a king's name. Joseph Smith was lying when he made his Explanation up out of thin air? Do you have faith in Joseph Smith's lie or will you begin to trust Egyptology and science?

[_Shulem]

There is no mind reading or guessing going on with understanding what Joseph Smith thought, he left us with plenty of evidence of that as did his followers, along with their own thoughts, which they aligned with Joseph Smith’s. Wilson brings up the letter of Joseph to James Arlington Bennett in 1843, given in the History of the Church. He tells Bennett something interesting. “…the art of embalming human bodies and preserving them in the catacombs of Egypt, whereby men, women, and children, as mummies, after a lapse of near 3,500 years come forth among the living, and although dead, the papyrus which has lived in their bosoms, unharmed, speaks for them, in language like the sound of an earthquake.”[111]

Wilson points out three details that is more probably than not tying this to the Book of Abraham and papyri.
1. He assigned a specific age, 3,500 years old to the papyrus he had in mind.
2. The phrase “the papyrus which has lived unharmed in their bosoms.”
3. Just two paragraphs earlier Joseph had quoted (its not in the History however) a series of putative Egyptian words which equate very near with the “explanation” printed in Facsimile 2 (Figs 1,5) in the Book of Abraham: “Jah-oh-eh, Enish-go-on-dosh, Flo-ees-Flos-is-is.” This same series of words also appear in the Grammar and Alphabet of the Egyptian language.
All this points, as Wilson notes, to the Book of Abraham as the context for Joseph Smith saying the papyrus was nearly 3,500 years old.[112] Mary Winters corroborates this when she mentioned in her own Autobiography Joseph told her when she was visiting that “they were thousands of years old.”[113] And William Appleby recorded after being shown the mummies and papyrus, “and when these mummies were embalmed which is nearly four thousand years ago…”[114] Woodruff put the time of both the mummies and papyrus “as old as Abraham or Adam,” as we have already seen. Benjamin F. Johnson also said “Great was our wonder in looking upon the bodies of those who 4,000 years ago were living princes and queens.”

Excellent points.

Joseph Smith in fact claimed to have original autographs of Abraham and Joseph. The papyri were supposedly thousands of years old. Strangely enough, they were tucked safely away in the hands of what would have to be apostate Egyptians who were doing Jehovah's bidding and the gods of Egypt be damned. The writings of Abraham via Joseph Smith slanders the sacred memory of the ancient Egyptians and their religion.

Joseph Smiths claims and story is utterly preposterous.

[_krose]

Now having determined that without a doubt, when we are confronted with contradictory claims made by modern scholars and Egyptologists, the solution is not to dismiss Joseph Smith without further thought, but to question the claims and assumptions of the scholars and Egyptologists.

Why does your solution not include questioning the claims and assumptions of Joseph Smith? If you don't then you are admitting you are starting your investigation by assuming the conclusions you want to prove, a meaningless exercise.

My question: Why is the internal feeling he attributes to 'Holy Spirit' beyond question? Surely we all know the human brain is capable of making us believe all kinds of things. I always remember what an apostle said in a BYU Devotional speech long ago, a caution to the effect that when you are in love, you can send and receive your own answers to prayer. I extend that to being emotionally attached to an idea or belief.

Why, when confronted with contrary evidence, should the feeling automatically Trump that evidence? The unreliability of 'spirit' should be obvious based on the fact that different people believe different, often contradictory ideas, confirmed by the 'spirit.'

[_Shulem]

My question: Why is the internal feeling he attributes to 'Holy Spirit' beyond question? Surely we all know the human brain is capable of making us believe all kinds of things. I always remember what an apostle said in a BYU Devotional speech long ago, a caution to the effect that when you are in love, you can send and receive your own answers to prayer. I extend that to being emotionally attached to an idea or belief.

Why, when confronted with contrary evidence, should the feeling automatically Trump that evidence? The unreliability of 'spirit' should be obvious based on the fact that different people believe different, often contradictory ideas, confirmed by the 'spirit.'

The brain is an amazing world in itself and is capable of manifesting all kinds of things to our senses in our conscious and subconscious selves. Things may seem like impressions or can take on illuminating vibrant scenes of magnificent proportion. Generally though, the General Authorities today teach that the so-called feelings and impressions of the Mormon Ghost are really nothing more than subtle feelings that are often hard to detect and interpret. Hence, try hard and listen to the Ghost because it's in the mind and heart and who really can explain all that?

Facts and scientific logic coupled with seeing and believing is the proper and appropriate way to judge. Zerinus is in a dream state -- fooled by his senses and the false teaching of the Mormon religion. The cult has him right where they want him. Deny reality. Deny the sun is shining when your're looking right at it. It's an open lie. It's the denying of things that are obviously true in order to prove absolute loyalty to the cult. This is what the church wants. It wants people that can lie to themselves and lie to others. It's really quite insidious and dark. Mormonism is rooted in a darkness that clouds the mind in order to create a false reality.

[_zerinus]

The fabricated chapters of the Book of Abraham are UnEgyptian as are the Facsimile Explanations. Anachronisms and made up Egyptian concepts contradict science and Egyptology. It's religious fiction written by a man (Joseph Smith) who knew nothing about ancient Egypt other than what he read in his KJV Bible and other source available to him such as Josephus and pseudepigrapha.

The Spirit bears witness to me that they are true, and that is what I go by. I don't care what you think.

Joseph Smith's usage of the "illustrations" is utter sacrilege. He blasphemed the Egyptian temple and gods. There is no greater offense that any one could commit against the ancient Egyptians. Joseph Smith committed the ultimate sin against ancient Egypt. Mormons today as a people share in his sacrilege.

I don't worship any Egyptian gods.

[_zerinus]

My question: Why is the internal feeling he attributes to 'Holy Spirit' beyond question? . . .

I said nothing about feelings. That was your idea.