Mormonism is not "Christianity"

[_consiglieri]

I take issue with Mormons saying temple ordinances are not discussed because they are "sacred, not secret."

This is backward and somewhat disinegenuous to my mind. More appropriately, temple ordinances are secret because Mormons believe them to be sacred.

I said that to say this.

In a similar way, I feel some label Mormons as non-Christian because "Mormons believe in a different Jesus."

I think this, too, is somewhat backward.

More appropriately, "Mormons believe in Jesus in a different way."

Just trying to be even-handed here.

Level playing field and all that . . .

All the Best!

--Consiglieri

[_Buffalo]

Well, the sacrament is sacred, but it's not secret. The LDS temple ordinances are secret because the Masonic rites they were taken from were secret.

[_stemelbow]

I'd say the latests posts by Jason, Liz and Consiglieri and very good contributions here. Buffalo and Hoops on the other hand, I have no idea what contributions your latest posts intend, if any at all. I've seen both of you maintain Mormonism is not Christian. Why can't we get a clear definition of the word in each of your views?

[_consiglieri]

Well, the sacrament is sacred, but it's not secret. The LDS temple ordinances are secret because the Masonic rites they were taken from were secret.

Then is Mormonism Christian because the religion it was taken from was Christian?


All the Best!

--Consiglieri

[_Buffalo]

Well, the sacrament is sacred, but it's not secret. The LDS temple ordinances are secret because the Masonic rites they were taken from were secret.

Then is Mormonism Christian because the religion it was taken from was Christian?


All the Best!

--Consiglieri

Only if Christians are Jewish because the religion they took their stuff from was Judaism ;)

[_Jason Bourne]

What "Christian" church believes in this "restoration" as the LDS believe? Answer = none. Mormons believe this... they are the only ones to believe this

Thews, I have been round and round with you on your reasoning and watched it with others. I mean no disrespect for you but I find your line of argument lacking and insubstantial as it relates to this question. I agree with Dan Peterson's arguments he made with you on this same point. I do not think we are going to agree on this.


So my only comment here is that Mormons are Christian just like Hispanics are human, Africans are human and Asians are humans.

It does not matter whether all of Christianity rejects Smith as a prophet. If his teachings are based in a requirement that one must except Jesus Christ as Son of God for salvation then that is a Christian based religion. One can argue that it is not orthodox or historically accurate and say it is heretical. And the question really is as I and others have tried to pin someone down on is what things are required for a denomination to be considered Christian and how far can one diverge from that before the Church is no longer Christian?

You may be right. Yet it is a Christian sect. Many may wish to view it heretical or what have you that are in the more orthodox traditions.

This is nonsense and based on your biased opinion.

I may biased. Most of us are. So are you. So what?

Weeding through your supposed holes to define what defines Jesus and God according to Christian doctrine excludes the very specific definition of how Mormonism defines it. Joseph Smith changed the Bible. Are you then going to take a BCspace stance on what is "official"

I think one should stick to what the Church teaches yes. But we can discuss other speculative teachings as well. I am well aware of the problematic ones. However, I think one should look at what the Church is today when working on this issue. I think the fact that the LDS leaders have been all over the place on lots of different things causes questions as to whether they were really prophets. But I think what the Church recognizes and emphasizes today is what is should be judged by as far is it being considered Christian.

For example, I think it is clear the BYs Adam God teachings were way out there and speak to the fact that he likely was not getting answers as a prophet should about who and what God is. So I question his authority. But the LDS Church does not teach or accept AG at all. So when if comes to discussing whether what the Church believes about the nature of God today and whether what it does believe makes in not Christian AG is not fair game.

Mormon doctrine? Do you deny Joseph Smith changed the Bible to write himself into it? That makes all of Mormon doctrine exclusive to Mormonism... unless you wish to reject the changes made by the prophet of God you place faith in.

No I do not deny it. What does that have to do with the discussion though?

I think this is not totally accurate as I have noted from LDS sources on this very thread. Jesus in Mormon doctrine was never just like other men and women. Jesus was chosen and the only begotten of the father from the beginning and already One with God ( meaning in mind, might, glory and power but not substance) before he was born. That is not like other men and women.

More tap dancing to attempt to prove similarities, rather than place focus on the vast differences. I don't get your stance Jason...i

No not really, I think I am just trying to present what the LDS Church believes today in light of this question fairly.

t's as if you're attempting to argue Joseph Smith really was a prophet of God... something only Mormons believe.

No not at all and you always fall back to this. I have told you before I doubt Smith was what he claimed. I have also told you I doubt that any one ever was really a prophet in the way I used to believe about a prophet. But I still like the Christian religion. And I think the LDS Church is part of that species. That is it really. It may be heretical and it may have some ideas other Christian faiths cannot buy into but it still is part of the species.

[_Jersey Girl]

Why do some posters have difficulty using the label "Christian heresy" to describe Mormonism? Or is everyone ok with that?

I described Mormonism as Christian heresy in this post:

http://mormondiscussions.com/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?p=487608#p487608

I think it best fits my evaluation of the doctrines contained in Mormonism.

A little wiki def:

Heresy (from Greek αίρεση, which originally meant "choice") is a controversial or novel change to a system of beliefs, especially a religion, that conflicts with established dogma.

[_Buffalo]

I'd say the latests posts by Jason, Liz and Consiglieri and very good contributions here. Buffalo and Hoops on the other hand, I have no idea what contributions your latest posts intend, if any at all. I've seen both of you maintain Mormonism is not Christian. Why can't we get a clear definition of the word in each of your views?

I think it's unclear that Mormonism is Christian. I think that 19th and early 20th century Mormonism definitely wasn't Christian. Mormonism seems to be normalizing toward Christianity, however. I'd say the religion itself is either almost Christian, or is Christian, but just barely.

I wouldn't call a McConkieite or Kimballite Mormon a Christian. But I think the church has a lot of members who would qualify as Christians today.

[_Fence Sitter]

From the LDS point of view I see the argument as being approached backwards from defenders, perhaps that is because many defenders here are NOM. If you are BC, Nevo, Daniel, Simon, Consig or others why are you trying to defend the LDS as Christian instead of questioning the Christianity of everyone else? It seems ironic to me that as LDS we are trying to fit inside some larger non denominational definition of what it means to be Christian. Don't we believe that we have restored a fullness of the gospel? Shouldn't the argument from believers be that other denominations are Christian only as far as they agree with our beliefs about him?

[_stemelbow]

I think it's unclear that Mormonism is Christian. I think that 19th and early 20th century Mormonism definitely wasn't Christian. Mormonism seems to be normalizing toward Christianity, however. I'd say the religion itself is either almost Christian, or is Christian, but just barely.

I wouldn't call a McConkieite or Kimballite Mormon a Christian. But I think the church has a lot of members who would qualify as Christians today.

Fewf! wow. There does seem to be a ton of subjectivity in your approach. So any clear definition, so I can understand exactly what you mean by some folks ("McConkieite" or "Kimballite") not being Christian?