Facsimile 3

[_Tobin]

Tobin's position is that God did not correct Joseph at all.

I think a review of the thread will show that Tobin has taken inconsistent (or, at the very least, incoherent) positions on this. At first he said Joseph Smith acted on his own, out of his own ignorance and arrogance (Tobin's words), in providing the translations of the facsimiles. Then later Tobin said that Joseph was inspired to restore some of the original Abrahamic drawings onto the Egyptian drawings, but the church somehow somewhere screwed it up and didn't publish Joseph Smith's inspired corrections. No explanation has yet been forthcoming as to why Mormon God acts in a manner that would make even Loki blush in embarrassment.

Again, I'm not interested in your reading problem Equality.

I've said Joseph Smith's assessment were wrong (for understandable reasons). I do not believe he was not corrected by the Lord. And other people have come to that conclusion as I noted as well such as Ed Ashment in his article in Sunstone and by Hugh Nibley in his reply.

[_Equality]

Tobin's position is that God did not correct Joseph at all.

I think a review of the thread will show that Tobin has taken inconsistent (or, at the very least, incoherent) positions on this. At first he said Joseph Smith acted on his own, out of his own ignorance and arrogance (Tobin's words), in providing the translations of the facsimiles. Then later Tobin said that Joseph was inspired to restore some of the original Abrahamic drawings onto the Egyptian drawings, but the church somehow somewhere screwed it up and didn't publish Joseph Smith's inspired corrections. No explanation has yet been forthcoming as to why Mormon God acts in a manner that would make even Loki blush in embarrassment.

Again, I'm not interested in your reading problem Equality.

I've said Joseph Smith's assessment were wrong (for understandable reasons). I do not believe he was not corrected by the Lord. And other people have come to that conclusion as I noted as well such as Ed Ashment in his article in Sunstone and by Hugh Nibley in his reply.

Let's just review what you said on page 8. I think I can read just fine, thank you very much. Here goes:

Tobin: That is NOT what I'm saying at all Equality. I'm stating that Joseph Smith's mistaken statements and attempts are understandable given his lack of knowledge and the fact he was a fallible human being and NOT God's sock puppet. His attempts to change the facsimile depictions (and later statements), for example indicate that the Lord corrected Joseph Smith's view.

What? Are you kidding? The Lord corrected Joseph Smith's view? But you have said multiple times that the facsimiles in the PoGP are wrong and you've said they should be removed. Where did God correct Joseph Smith's view? You are completely inconsistent and not making any sense. If this is the information that God has revealed to you, then you are proving my point: God is a trickster and a colossal prick. Not only did he not correct Joseph Smith, allowing him to get everything wrong in the bogus Book of Abraham. God has also made a fool out of you. What a dick this Mormon God is.

Not really. There were changes in the depictions made, but they were dismissed as mistakes. I don't believe they were mistakes.

I believe changes to the Egyptian facsimile WERE NOT a mistake. When the Church "corrected" these changes to the depictions and used the original Egyptian depictions instead - THAT WAS the mistake.

Yes, the papyri are Egyptian. They have nothing to do with the Book of Abraham. The depictions in the facsimiles may or may not of however. Since I do not know what the original depictions were, I can not tell you. As I said, I believe Joseph Smith was trying to restore these depictions (hence the changes that were thought to be mistakes by the Church).

Here you state repeatedly that Joseph Smith was corrected by the Lord,that he was restoring the original lost Abrahamic portions of the facsimiles and that it was the Church, not Joseph Smith, who mistakenly thought what Smith was doing was wrong. My reading comprehension is just fine. I understand that with apologists words sometimes mean the exact opposite of how they are commonly understood by rational people, but this really takes the cake.

[_Tobin]

Here you state repeatedly that Joseph Smith was corrected by the Lord,that he was restoring the original lost Abrahamic portions of the facsimiles and that it was the Church, not Joseph Smith, who mistakenly thought what Smith was doing was wrong. My reading comprehension is just fine. I understand that with apologists words sometimes mean the exact opposite of how they are commonly understood by rational people, but this really takes the cake.

And as I've said Joseph Smith's assessment about the papyri were wrong (for understandable reasons). And I believe he was eventually corrected by the Lord. Other people have come to that same conclusion as I noted such as Ed Ashment in his article in Sunstone and by Hugh Nibley in his reply to Ed's article.

I believe that Joseph Smith's changes to the facsimiles, are an example that he was corrected, and they were his attempts at restoring the original Abraham facsimiles. Can I prove that? No, nobody can - we don't have the originals.

Do I believe that the Church were mistaken to restore the Egyptian facsimiles instead? Yes, for the reason I gave above.

You claim I'm being inconsistent which is false. I have consistently stated there were writings of Abraham that do not now exist, that Joseph Smith intially thought these writings were the Egyptian papyri (and his attempts demonstrate this), and that I believe Joseph Smith was eventually corrected from this misconception.

[_Shulem]

Wow, this thread has exploded like an atomic bomb -- I've yet to get past page 11.

I shudder to think that I'd still be in the church, faithful, and a strong apologist for the Book of Abraham had not my xwife divorced me because of my true sexual orientation and inability to fulfill the measure of a straight man's creation. Thank you, my beloved, xwife, from a 20 year marriage for having the courage to let me go and thus allow me to separate myself from the church while I explored my true self.

Well, I thank my lucky stars that I'm gay. Otherwise, I might very much still be a faithful Mormon believing in the Book of Abraham. It was my gayness that offered the way out because I was terribly faithful to the cause. I hope you all understand that!

Paul O

[_Equality]

I believe that Joseph Smith's changes to the facsimiles, are an example that he was corrected, and they were his attempts at restoring the original Abraham facsimiles.

Which changes to the facsimiles? You have not specified any, despite being asked. Are you referring to his attempts to fill in the lacunae? And if Joseph knew (having been corrected by the Lord) that the facsimiles on the papyrus were Egyptian and not the Abrahamic originals, why did Joseph Smith give explanations of the symbols and pictures on the Egyptian ones? What evidence do you have that Joseph Smith ever came to believe that there were Abrahamic facsimiles that were different from the ones in his possession? And if the Lord corrected Joseph Smith's initial misunderstandings, why didn't the Lord let Brigham Young and his successors in on the secret? Do you believe the Lord reveals things to you regarding errors in canonized scripture that he does not reveal to the Brethren in the church to which you belong? You keep bringing up Nibley and Ashment. When did they come up with this "theory"about a missing original document written by Abraham that was revealed directly to Joseph Smith? Was it before or after the papyri were found and translated by Egyptologists, confirming that the text bore no resemblance to the text in the Book of Abraham?

[_Kevin Graham]

I'm going to throw out an idea here.

What if---just hypothetically---Tobin has no coherent ideas at all, but is simply going from one ad hoc assertion to another because he thinks objective reality has to be molded to fit his religious convictions, instead of vice-versa?

That would be perfectly in line with what other popular apologists have asserted. Mfbukowski for example, has been for years flaunting this notion that critics can never pin down the Church, no matter what the evidence is, because Mormons are supposed to come up with their own truth. He actually says this. He is proud of the fact that he tells his children to do likewise. Come up with your own truth. He then starts questioning what reality means anyway, since everyone's experience is unique and no one knows what it is like to be a bat!

And this guy is supposed to be a philosophy wiz.

And then there was pacman who said he would never believe the Book of Abraham was a fraud no matter what amount of evidence is presented. His mind has been prepared to rationalize it all away no matter what.

[_Tobin]

I believe that Joseph Smith's changes to the facsimiles, are an example that he was corrected, and they were his attempts at restoring the original Abraham facsimiles.

Which changes to the facsimiles? You have not specified any, despite being asked. Are you referring to his attempts to fill in the lacunae?

There are clear changes in the depictions from other examples of that scene that the Egyptians would have used in Facsimile 1. Facsimiles 2 also appears to have been altered by Joseph Smith.

And if Joseph knew (having been corrected by the Lord) that the facsimiles on the papyrus were Egyptian and not the Abrahamic originals, why did Joseph Smith give explanations of the symbols and pictures on the Egyptian ones?

Read Ed Ashment's article "The Facsimiles of the Book of Abraham" (Sunstone, Dec. 1979, pp. 33-48). He states

...the prophet may not have felt that he had translated the Book of Abraham from any of the Joseph Smith Papyri. (p. 44).

...he [Joseph Smith] only "translated" the vignettes of Facsimile 2, oddly not rendering the meaning of any of the hieroglyphic texts. When he challenged the world to "find out these numbers" he may have been admitting that as yet he could not. Therefore the prophet cannot be held responsible for establishing a relationship between the Joseph Smith Papyri and the Book of Abraham when he may not have been sure about it himself. (p. 44)

What evidence do you have that Joseph Smith ever came to believe that there were Abrahamic facsimiles that were different from the ones in his possession?

Again, note the changes made above. I do not believe they were mistakes.

And if the Lord corrected Joseph Smith's initial misunderstandings, why didn't the Lord let Brigham Young and his successors in on the secret?

The sock puppet assertion again. Don't you guys get tired of repeating the same stupid non-sense over and over again?

Do you believe the Lord reveals things to you regarding errors in canonized scripture that he does not reveal to the Brethren in the church to which you belong?

Apparently he revealed it to Ed Ashment and Hugh Nibley too. You are being absurd.

You keep bringing up Nibley and Ashment. When did they come up with this "theory"about a missing original document written by Abraham that was revealed directly to Joseph Smith? Was it before or after the papyri were found and translated by Egyptologists, confirming that the text bore no resemblance to the text in the Book of Abraham?

Ed Ashment wrote his article in 1979 and Hugh Nibley responded.

[_Themis]

No, it comes down to Themis has never bothered to read their arguments or articles on the matter. Otherwise, he'd be aware there were other views about the Book of Abraham.

I admit I haven't read every article, but who has. I think I am well versed in most apologetic arguments, and it's not like I didn't ask you to provide the evidence. If you had evidence I am 100% confident you would have already provided it.

[_Themis]

Or maybe the contention that people are God's sock puppets is wrong.

I still have no idea how your sock puppet thing is supposed to work with Book of Abraham. I think you just like to say it as though that settles some matter. I am not even sure why you bring it up for what you quoted of mine since it has nothing to do with my point, which is the critic views works with every problem with LDS truth claims

[Guest]

Or maybe the contention that people are God's sock puppets is wrong.

I still have no idea how your sock puppet thing is supposed to work with Book of Abraham. I think you just like to say it as though that settles some matter. I am not even sure why you bring it up for what you quoted of mine since it has nothing to do with my point, which is the critic views works with every problem with LDS truth claims

It is very simply. Human beings are imperfect, fallible and aren't God's sock puppets. That means we aren't perfect and know all that God knows like a proper sock puppet should. Seems pretty obvious doesn't it.

However, the contention the critics (such as yourself) make, which is completely absurd, is that magically Mormon prophets are something different. For some reason, they should be something other than imperfect fallible human beings and should be God's sock puppets instead.