Another Anti-Mormon Who Just Doesn't Get It

[_The Nehor]

by the way, Nehor, what's your definition of integrity?

I only ask because it seems to me that standing by "my insults" is part of integrity. A lack of integrity would be saying something I don't really think, like, "Oh Wade, you're so wise."

I mean, I won't deny I'm nuts, but I don't see why standing by my criticisms is indicative of lunacy. So, you know, just curious.

Fair enough, I see integrity as adherence to a moral code. Throwing insults and standing by them belongs to no moral code I'm aware of.

I would call this situation honesty if the person in question believed said insults. Perhaps overly persistent and unkind honesty, but honesty nonetheless.

[Gadianton]

I am grateful to Liz for reminding me to discuss Beastie's specific example in light of what I explained about the growth in faith process.

Let's start at the BEGINNING. From what Beastie has told us, she prayed to know if the Book of Mormon is true, and received affirming confirmation (as per Moroni 10). Thus the seed of faith was planted.

However, at that time she also prayed to know if the Church was true, but felt she didn't receive an answer to that specific prayer. Typically, though, when investigators, being taught by representatives of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, pray about the verity of the Book of Mormon or Joseph as a prophet or whatever, when they receive an affirming answer, they rationally interpret that more generally as indicating that what the missionaries have taught them is true, and that the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints is the true Church. At the very least, Beastie's sister came to that rational conclusion. But, evidently, Beastie thought otherwise.

Granted, whether the investigators receive a Moroni 10 confirmation to their prayers specifically about the verity of the Church, or whether they inductively come to that reasonable conclusion based on some other related confirmations, it is not as though they are given a sure knowledge at that point, but simply a seed of faith is planted in their heart sufficient for them to decide to enter the growth in faith processes set forth by the Church.

And, even for those like Beastie who didn't receive specific confirmation that the Church is true, if they have a seed of faith planted of any related sort, and they chose to join the Church, the process of growth is designed to grant them confirmation, though of an Alma 32 kind (which confirmation, to my way of thinking, is increasingly more convincing). I explained how this confirmation occurs in my previous post when I briefly described the MIDDLE of the processes.

Whatever the case, as an investigator, Beastie chose to enter the gate and onto the path of growth towards Christ. In my next post I will examine what occured while she was on the path and during the MIDDLE of the process.

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

[_Some Schmo]

Fair enough, I see integrity as adherence to a moral code. Throwing insults and standing by them belongs to no moral code I'm aware of.

I would call this situation honesty if the person in question believed said insults. Perhaps overly persistent and unkind honesty, but honesty nonetheless.

Well, that's just it; I say what I honestly think (even when what I say is supposed to be couched in humor - although in that case, I recognize some hyperbole). Honesty is part of my moral code. It's far more moral than glossing over criticism, and as a bonus, far more instructive.

So you're saying it's more moral to hurl insults you don't really mean?

[_The Nehor]

Well, that's just it; I say what I honestly think (even when what I say is supposed to be couched in humor - although in that case, I recognize some hyperbole). Honesty is part of my moral code. It's far more moral than glossing over criticism, and as a bonus, far more instructive.

So you're saying it's more moral to hurl insults you don't really mean?

No, I'm saying it's probably more moral not to hurl insults at all. I'm personally still working on this. I don't think most people have a problem with using insults they don't mean and don't think avoiding this shows moral character.

Hurling insults you don't really mean is much worse. This is why I despise Scratch and his toadies.

[_Some Schmo]

No, I'm saying it's probably more moral not to hurl insults at all. I'm personally still working on this. I don't think most people have a problem with using insults they don't mean and don't think avoiding this shows moral character.

Hurling insults you don't really mean is much worse. This is why I despise Scratch and his toadies.

So then we're back to the beginning. You hurl insults you really mean. That's being honest. It shows integrity, doesn't it? Assuming you're going to comment, it's better to tell the truth, right?

If not insulting people is part of your moral code, then fine. I personally think that honesty is a bigger value, but that's my personal moral code, and you've prioritized your code differently. I stand by my code. That's integrity. I still don't see how that is indicative of lunacy (unless you were just hurling an insult you didn't mean).

by the way, I will grant that I don't always speak up and criticize. Sometimes, it doesn't seem worth it (in fact, usually). I will do it, however, if I think something needs to be said, and I don't avoid doing it on the grounds of morality.

[_Scottie]

I am grateful to Liz for reminding me to discuss Beastie's specific example in light of what I explained about the growth in faith process.

Let's start at the BEGINNING. From what Beastie has told us, she prayed to know if the Book of Mormon is true, and received affirming confirmation (as per Moroni 10). Thus the seed of faith was planted.

However, at that time she also prayed to know if the Church was true, but felt she didn't receive an answer to that specific prayer. Typically, though, when investigators, being taught by representatives of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, pray about the verity of the Book of Mormon or Joseph as a prophet or whatever, when they receive an affirming answer, they rationally interpret that more generally as indicating that what the missionaries have taught them is true, and that the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints is the true Church. At the very least, Beastie's sister came to that rational conclusion. But, evidently, Beastie thought otherwise.

Granted, whether the investigators receive a Moroni 10 confirmation to their prayers specifically about the verity of the Church, or whether they inductively come to that reasonable conclusion based on some other related confirmations, it is not as though they are given a sure knowledge at that point, but simply a seed of faith is planted in their heart sufficient for them to decide to enter the growth in faith processes set forth by the Church.

And, even for those like Beastie who didn't receive specific confirmation that the Church is true, if they have a seed of faith planted of any related sort, and they chose to join the Church, the process of growth is designed to grant them confirmation, though of an Alma 32 kind (which confirmation, to my way of thinking, is increasingly more convincing). I explained how this confirmation occurs in my previous post when I briefly described the MIDDLE of the processes.

Whatever the case, as an investigator, Beastie chose to enter the gate and onto the path of growth towards Christ. In my next post I will examine what occured while she was on the path and during the MIDDLE of the process.

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

Wade, not to be overly inflammatory, but the concept of using a "seed of faith" and nurturing it until it becomes belief and then NEVER question that belief is how a lot of cults operate. The terminology might be a different, but the concepts are the same. Just because the LDS church is too big to be called a cult doesn't mean it doesn't employ some very cult-like actions.

Take your scenario and apply it to the Wiccans. Lets say a Wiccan missionary came knocking on your sisters door. They ask her to take a leap of faith and see if the aura of Gaia can penetrate her soul. Your sister feels this aura and decides to commit to the Wiccan religion. They then tell her that Gaia would be displeased if she were to question any of their beliefs and that in order to maintain unity with the Earth, she must submit herself wholly to the Earth and the Wiccans. Otherwise Gaia will remove her aura.

Can you see how some might call this cultish?

[_Scottie]

by the way, I will grant that I don't always speak up and criticize. Sometimes, it doesn't seem worth it (in fact, usually). I will do it, however, if I think something needs to be said, and I don't avoid doing it on the grounds of morality.

Do you go up to really fat people and say, "DAMN you're really fat!! It needed to be said."

[_wenglund]

So, what happened to Beastie during the MIDDLE of the process?

Well, as Beastie explained, she chose to join the Church, and for a number of years (17, if I remember correctly) her heart and mind were focused on becoming like Christ, she received various growth-inducing spiritual confirmations and had various spiritual experiences, and she grew in faith within the restored gospel, and presumably became increasingly more like Christ.

In so doing, whether she consciously realized it or not, this was increasingly an Alma 32 confirmation in answer to her investigator pray regarding if the Church is true. As the saying goes, the proof is in the pudding. Since the gospel is designed and intended to best bring us to Christ and to enable us to become like Christ, then success in growth towards that end may reasonably be viewed as confirming that the Church is truly of God and truly the way to God. At least that is the way the process of growth in faitth is designed to work.

However, for reasons of her own, Beastie once again thought otherwise, and this in controvention to how the process of growth in faith is designed.

Yet, throughout the years, she did have a strong non-testimony belief (???) that the Church is true, and accordingly remained faithful and continued to grow...that is, until she learned of certain historical events in the Church's past.

Beastie hasn't disclosed on this thread what those historical events were, but they evidently caused her non-testimony belief to diminish, thus precipitating a crisis of faith. It will be interesting to examine each of these historical events to see if they are relevant to becoming more like Christ, thereby either somewhat supporting or discrediting my hypothesis. We'll see. But, given Beasties subsequent complete loss of faith, I have good reason to be confident.

Anyway, because of this crisis of faith, Beastie was moved to once again pray for confirmation that the Church was true--and this in spite of the various spiritual experiences and Moroni 10 and Alma 32 confirmations she had been given throughout her time in the Church. She apparently thought that a specific Moroni 10 confirmation would somehow salvage her loss of faith due to the historical material.

In her diminished state of faith she may not have realized that the process of faith, at least in the MIDDLE of the process, is not necessarily designed to work that way. As intimated earlier, as with most any epistemology, at the BEGINNING of the process, when a person has little or no faith or understanding, the Moroni 10 kinds of ostensive confirmations are somewhat necessary. But, as one continues to grow in faith, the Alma 32 experiencial type of confirmations and learning begin to predominate, and for good reason.

The nature of faith is such that in order for it to be strengthed at certain stages of development, it requires resistence and testing. The resistance and testing may consists not only in learning things that raise doubt, but also in terms of silence from the heavens. This type of testing provides a catalyst for moving the faithful from complete dependancy on God, to independance on the part of the member, to finally interdependancy between the member and God (not unlike the stages of human development--from child to teen to adult).

In other words, in terms of the more advanced stage of development that Beastie was presumably at at the time of her crisis of faith, instead of resorting to a practice typically reserved for the BEGINNING of the process of faith--the Moroni 10 prayer, the process is designed to have her re-focus her mind and heart on continuing to progress in becoming like Christ. By so doing, she may have been weened from complete spiritual dependancy on God, and developed greater interdependancy with God, thus becoming more like Christ, and thereby increasingly and experiencially confirming (via Alma 32) the verity of the gospel in answer to her prayer.

Instead, and contrary to how the process of growth in faith is designed, she mistakely and fallaciously interpreted the presumed silence, or lack of Moroni 10 confirmation, as indicative that the Church isn't true, and eventually that God doesn't exists. What was intended as a test of her faith (for the purpose strengthening and growth), she turned upside down and made it a test of God, and since in her mind God failed that test, then to her God didn't exist.

So, in several ways this specific example may indirectly and directly supports my hypothesis.

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

[_Some Schmo]

by the way, I will grant that I don't always speak up and criticize. Sometimes, it doesn't seem worth it (in fact, usually). I will do it, however, if I think something needs to be said, and I don't avoid doing it on the grounds of morality.

Do you go up to really fat people and say, "DAMN you're really fat!! It needed to be said."

LOL... no. Most fat people know they're fat. It doesn't need to be said.

[_Scottie]

LOL... no. Most fat people know they're fat. It doesn't need to be said.

You have a good point. Most stupid people don't know they are stupid.