Mormonism is not "Christianity"

[Guest]

From the LDS point of view I see the argument as being approached backwards from defenders, perhaps that is because many defenders here are NOM. If you are BC, Nevo, Daniel, Simon, Consig or others why are you trying to defend the LDS as Christian instead of questioning the Christianity of everyone else? It seems ironic to me that as LDS we are trying to fit inside some larger non denominational definition of what it means to be Christian. Don't we believe that we have restored a fullness of the gospel? Shouldn't the argument from believers be that other denominations are Christian only as far as they agree with our beliefs about him?

That to me is much like the thinking I see from those who are trying to nuance the definition into something that just confuses. I don't see how this approach makes any sense. We have categories and sub-categories. Take Jason's example used above. We are all human. We're just not all the same type of human (thinking of type as gender, or race). It makes perfect sense to continue with that line of reasoning instead of going through the effort of trying to muddy the issue with a subjective stance.

[_Buffalo]

I think it's unclear that Mormonism is Christian. I think that 19th and early 20th century Mormonism definitely wasn't Christian. Mormonism seems to be normalizing toward Christianity, however. I'd say the religion itself is either almost Christian, or is Christian, but just barely.

I wouldn't call a McConkieite or Kimballite Mormon a Christian. But I think the church has a lot of members who would qualify as Christians today.

Fewf! wow. There does seem to be a ton of subjectivity in your approach. So any clear definition, so I can understand exactly what you mean by some folks ("McConkieite" or "Kimballite") not being Christian?

Obviously this topic is completely subjective. There is no objective standard.

McConkie didn't think we should worship Christ. Kimball had an odd self-flagellation fetish in regards to sin, and didn't seem to believe in the atonement.

[Anonymous]

Some people say that Mormons believe in a different Jesus. I think it is more accurate to say that Mormons use a different definition of "Christianity".

Mormons always use the general definition of Christianity, which is the family of religions that believe in Jesus. Mormonism certainly falls within that general definition.

However, there is also a more specific definition of Christanity which is very common in our culture. The specific defnition of Christianity is the one specific religion that believes that faith in Jesus is the only thing necessary for salvation. When somebody says "I'm a Christian,", she is usually using "Christian" in this more specific way.

How do you tell if somebody is a "Christian" according to this second definition? You simply ask, "Is everybody who has faith in Jesus saved?" If he gives an unqualified yes, then he is a "Christian." If he says, "Well, you also need to be baptized by the proper authority...." then he is not a "Christian." In other words, "Christians" think that "Christians" are already saved and don't need to switch to a different Christian church to get right with God.

What it comes down to is a "mutual salvation agreement." Christians believe that Christians are saved. Since Mormons believe that non-Mormon Christians aren't saved, then non-Mormon Christians have a tendancy to believe that Mormons aren't saved.

In contrast, Mormons try to game the system, using something akin to Pascal's wager: if you have faith in Jesus (the requirement under non-Mormon Christianity), then you are saved. So why not do that and do the Mormon stuff to, thereby maximizing the probability that you are saved? Non-Mormon Christians take issue with the system being gamed that way.

[_Jersey Girl]

Analytics

Non-Mormon Christians take issue with the system being gamed that way.

When you say "gamed" that way, what exactly do you mean?

[_stemelbow]

Obviously this topic is completely subjective. There is no objective standard.

McConkie didn't think we should worship Christ. Kimball had an odd self-flagellation fetish in regards to sin, and didn't seem to believe in the atonement.

So the standard should not be a dictionary? Its just willy-nilly words can mean whatever you want them to mean? Okay...thanks Buffalo.

by the way each and every word I just typed does not mean what you think it means because I meant something different then what you are probably used to, and the same goes for this sentence. Why are we even talking to each other, anyway?

[_Buffalo]

Some people say that Mormons believe in a different Jesus. I think it is more accurate to say that Mormons use a different definition of "Christianity".

Mormons always use the general definition of Christianity, which is the family of religions that believe in Jesus. Mormonism certainly falls within that general definition.

However, there is also a more specific definition of Christanity which is very common in our culture. The specific defnition of Christianity is the one specific religion that believes that faith in Jesus is the only thing necessary for salvation. When somebody says "I'm a Christian,", she is usually using "Christian" in this more specific way.

How do you tell if somebody is a "Christian" according to this second definition? You simply ask, "Is everybody who has faith in Jesus saved?" If he gives an unqualified yes, then he is a "Christian." If he says, "Well, he also needs to be baptized by the proper authority...." then he is not a "Christian." In other words, "Christians" think that "Christians" are already saved and don't need to switch to a different Christian church to get right with God.

What it comes down to is a "mutual salvation agreement." Christians believe that Christians are saved. Since Mormons believe that non-Mormon Christians aren't saved, then non-Mormon Christians have a tendancy to believe that Mormons aren't saved.

In contrast, Mormons try to game the system, using something akin to Pascal's wager: if you have faith in Jesus (the requirement under non-Mormon Christianity), then you are saved. So why not do that and do the Mormon stuff to, thereby maximizing the probability that you are saved? Non-Mormon Christians take issue with the system being gamed that way.

What complicates this is Mormons have a different take on what it means to be saved. They believe that technically, just about everyone is saved, even non-Christians. Exalted (deified), not so much.

[_Buffalo]

Obviously this topic is completely subjective. There is no objective standard.

McConkie didn't think we should worship Christ. Kimball had an odd self-flagellation fetish in regards to sin, and didn't seem to believe in the atonement.

So the standard should not be a dictionary? Its just willy-nilly words can mean whatever you want them to mean? Okay...thanks Buffalo.

by the way each and every word I just typed does not mean what you think it means because I meant something different then what you are probably used to, and the same goes for this sentence. Why are we even talking to each other, anyway?

Christianity is a concept too complex to get down to a short definition, in my opinion.

[_stemelbow]

What complicates this is Mormons have a different take on what it means to be saved. They believe that technically, just about everyone is saved, even non-Christians. Exalted (deified), not so much.

On top of that, Mormons just don't believe Mormons are saved. They think all, essentially, are saved, as Buffalo says, but also leave room for non-Mormon folk to be exalted. Its simply wacky to base the definition of the word on stuff like this, if you ask me.

[_stemelbow]

Christianity is a concept too complex to get down to a short definition, in my opinion.

Fine. Make a long definition then. Offer all the comlexities you wish.

[_Jersey Girl]

Buff

What complicates this is Mormons have a different take on what it means to be saved. They believe that technically, just about everyone is saved, even non-Christians. Exalted (deified), not so much.

LDS to EV translator, at your service!

When LDS say that (just about) everyone is saved, what they are referring to is the EV concept of bodily resurrection. EV's believe that ALL persons will be resurrected.

When LDS refer to Exaltation, it is akin to the EV concept of Salvation.

Here, let me go one step further.

If you ask LDS what they believe to be true about the Celestial Kingdom (I almost said forum!), they believe they can become a god of their own world.

If you ask EV's what they believe to be true about their eternal state, some will tell you that they believe they might have different abilities than we have here on earth.

EV's stop short of using the phrase "becoming a god" because EV's believe that puts man on par with God which is entirely blasphemous in the EV mind.