Skousen & McGuire apologetics on the Book of Abraham.

The catch-all forum for general topics and debates. Minimal moderation. Rated PG to PG-13.
drumdude
God
Posts: 7255
Joined: Thu Oct 29, 2020 5:29 am

Re: Skousen & McGuire apologetics on the Book of Abraham.

Post by drumdude »

Kishkumen wrote:
Mon Aug 07, 2023 7:32 pm
drumdude wrote:
Mon Aug 07, 2023 7:27 pm
Compel is a high bar, let’s set it slightly lower. What about work that causes people to doubt that QAnon is a conspiracy theory? Tucker Carlson “just asking questions” for example.

There is a lot of effort being put into casting doubt on the results of the 2020 election. It doesn’t compel people to believe the election was rigged, but it causes many people to question.

I think Mormon apologetics is attempting to utilize the same tactics, for the same goals. You could call that cynical, but I don’t see a real difference there.
Good scholarship is usually interested in what makes phenomena like QAnon happen in the first place. What is this stuff? How does it work? What are its causes? What can we know about the particulars of this case? Are there other, similar phenomena? How are they related? How are they different?

I don't think this kind of effort has much of anything to do with affirming these things or disproving them. It is about understanding a human phenomenon.
I guess that would be the difference between Mormon Studies and Mormon Apologetics. I’m certainly not against Mormon Studies.

I guess you could divide the space into three, because currently there is a small war between the Interpreter apologetics and the Maxwell Institute apologetics. Because it seems that the MI is more closely aligned with doing good scholarly Mormon Studies work.
User avatar
Res Ipsa
God
Posts: 10636
Joined: Mon Oct 26, 2020 6:44 pm
Location: Playing Rabbits

Re: Skousen & McGuire apologetics on the Book of Abraham.

Post by Res Ipsa »

Kishkumen wrote:
Mon Aug 07, 2023 7:25 pm
Res Ipsa wrote:
Mon Aug 07, 2023 7:23 pm
When I was looking at usage, I found a book with contributions by a number of authors that addressed the repurposing of aspects of the Egyptian civilization by later civilizations. Sadly, only the introduction was available online. The editor made a point that I had never thought of before. When most people talk about history, they talk about the ideas, art, buildings, etc. and how they functioned in that civilization at that time. If one thinks of history as a timeline, it's like getting a series of cross sections perpendicular to the timeline that don't connect with each other.

But the civilizations are connected with each other through repurposing -- taking elements of the earlier civilization and giving them a new purpose. Paying attention that process turns the discrete snapshots into a film, revealing connections that help explain why things developed the way they did.

It was an aha! moment for me and persuaded me that the term was literally appropriate for an important concept.

That is one of the reasons I enjoy hanging out here. I learn stuff.
I would be interested in knowing the biblio information on that book. Looks like something I would really enjoy sinking my teeth into. From your summary it looks very amenable to my perspective. At the same time, I would probably learn a lot from it.
Here is a link. https://www.google.com/books/edition/Th ... frontcover
he/him
we all just have to live through it,
holding each other’s hands.


— Alison Luterman
Marcus
God
Posts: 6780
Joined: Mon Oct 25, 2021 10:44 pm

Re: Skousen & McGuire apologetics on the Book of Abraham.

Post by Marcus »

drumdude wrote:
Mon Aug 07, 2023 7:02 pm
Marcus wrote:
Sun Aug 06, 2023 9:55 pm
I am wondering if the apologist foray into defining what Smith did with the papyri as "re-purposing" is a step toward defining Smith's [whatever?!] with the gold plates as "repurposing."

Can you imagine what that could do to the historicity argument?
So to circle back to this, I think Marcus is dead-on correct here- that the problems with the book of Abraham lead directly to doubts about the Book of Mormon.

And I haven’t seen apologists wrestle with this question yet. I’ve only seen them double down on the witnesses that the gold plates really existed, therefore the Book of Mormon must have been miraculous and not merely an invention of Smith’s mind...
Yes, they are focused on witnesses when the evidence is "missing." Or, more accurately, most likely never existed. Meanwhile, the people of the time who spoke about the papyrus are no longer mentioned in apologetic support of the Book of Abraham, as far as I know, or are presented as being in error, due to later information. It doesn't reflect well on the reliability of Mormon witnesses of the time.
User avatar
Kishkumen
God
Posts: 9329
Joined: Tue Oct 27, 2020 2:37 pm
Location: Cassius University
Contact:

Re: Skousen & McGuire apologetics on the Book of Abraham.

Post by Kishkumen »

Res Ipsa wrote:
Mon Aug 07, 2023 7:35 pm
Not that I know of. I didn't keep a copy. It basically traced the history of criticisms of the Book of Abraham, beginning with someone whose name I forget sending copies of the facsimiles to Egyptologists for interpretation, the discovery of the scrolls at the Met, and the actual translations by Nibley, among others. Then it discussed the then-current apologetic theories: missing scroll, hidden meaning, and catalyst.

We did a two part presentation in class over two days. The first day ended with the evidence that the Book of Abraham was not a translation of the scrolls. This was shocking news to the entire class. Several students were in tears. The next day we patched things up with apologetics and bore our testimonies. (It was BYU, after all).

All of this was news to me. I spent hours in the special collections department doing the research. I really wanted to believe, but doing the paper and presentation was the start of my road out.
What a memorable experience for you! It is the kind of account that makes for a riveting memoir of a certain kind, if done right.
"He disturbs the laws of his country, he forces himself upon women, and he puts men to death without trial.” ~Otanes on the monarch, Herodotus Histories 3.80.
User avatar
Kishkumen
God
Posts: 9329
Joined: Tue Oct 27, 2020 2:37 pm
Location: Cassius University
Contact:

Re: Skousen & McGuire apologetics on the Book of Abraham.

Post by Kishkumen »

Here is a link. https://www.google.com/books/edition/Th ... frontcover
Cool! Thanks! I have run into this one before but did not have time to check it out. I’ll do so now.
"He disturbs the laws of his country, he forces himself upon women, and he puts men to death without trial.” ~Otanes on the monarch, Herodotus Histories 3.80.
Marcus
God
Posts: 6780
Joined: Mon Oct 25, 2021 10:44 pm

Re: Skousen & McGuire apologetics on the Book of Abraham.

Post by Marcus »

drumdude wrote:
Mon Aug 07, 2023 7:14 pm
I often wonder what would come out of a similar effort to support another widely discredited historical or scientific theory. Imagine a paper like Interpreter focused on the historicity of Atlantis. Or the idea that aliens built the pyramids.

Could some interesting work come out of such an endeavor? Some uncomfortable facts that challenge our understanding of reality? If Mormonism is false, then you would expect similar results from any intense prolonged examination of any widely doubted conspiracy theory.
I think this is why we see few works about the LDS claims elsewhere. When Jenkins interacted with Hamblin, he was quite clear that the LDS church had no objective ground on which to stand re a historical Book of Mormon, and that their arguments were clearly faith-based and factually insupportable. I don't see anything different happening in the Book of Abraham arguments. Making Smith's activities seem more palatable by wrapping fakery and fraud in the mantles of mysticism and esotericism is not convincing to anyone but believers.
Doctor CamNC4Me
God
Posts: 9843
Joined: Wed Oct 28, 2020 2:04 am

Re: Skousen & McGuire apologetics on the Book of Abraham.

Post by Doctor CamNC4Me »

Kishkumen wrote:
Mon Aug 07, 2023 7:12 pm
Doctor CamNC4Me wrote:
Mon Aug 07, 2023 6:38 pm
I’d be interested in reading what you think is actually going on with the papyri with regard to Joseph Smith’s activities in a new thread, if you’re willing of course.

- Doc
I am sorry, Doc. I have not been ignoring you, but I have visiting family and this is not the sort of thing I can hash out in between other obligations in a couple of minutes. I would be happy to share my thoughts, such as they are at this point, in a different thread soon.
That’d be wonderful, and don’t worry, many of us are also busy with other obligations at the moment, so we understand if you need some time to gather your thoughts on the matter.

- Doc
User avatar
Kishkumen
God
Posts: 9329
Joined: Tue Oct 27, 2020 2:37 pm
Location: Cassius University
Contact:

Re: Skousen & McGuire apologetics on the Book of Abraham.

Post by Kishkumen »

Thanks, Doc!
"He disturbs the laws of his country, he forces himself upon women, and he puts men to death without trial.” ~Otanes on the monarch, Herodotus Histories 3.80.
hauslern
Area Authority
Posts: 630
Joined: Tue Dec 08, 2020 2:36 am

Re: Skousen & McGuire apologetics on the Book of Abraham.

Post by hauslern »

Would it be possible for the LDS church to jettison the facsimiles from the Book of Abraham and just accept the contents of the Book of Abraham as revelation? MattHarris said the leadership now say with regard to the black priesthood issue that they got it wrong. BY is consider wrong as regards the Adam God teaching. There was a paper I found on https://stars.library.ucf.edu/cgi/viewc ... ontext=urj
Exploring Cognitive Dissonance between College Students'
Religious and Spiritual Beliefs and Their Higher Education

While it is not surprising that increased
religious service attendance related to a decrease in
likelihood of cognitive dissonance, as studies have found
it to have a buffering effect (McFarland et al. 2011;
Reimer 2010), a strong sense of community is also
often associated with religious services. Socializing then
may have a mitigating effect on cognitive dissonance.
Engaging in frequent social activities may, in addition
to alleviating stress, make any tension from conflict less
salient, ultimately preventing cognitive dissonance.

Institute acts as a buffer to students exposed to problem information. So the Book of Abraham issue might not matter
Marcus
God
Posts: 6780
Joined: Mon Oct 25, 2021 10:44 pm

Re: Skousen & McGuire apologetics on the Book of Abraham.

Post by Marcus »

Shulem wrote:
Mon Aug 07, 2023 4:02 pm
I was right. You are lost within a state of being lost and confused.

I can't help you. Sorry.

PS. Marcus, can you believe all this? It's simply nuts!
:lol: :lol: :lol: And the story continues.

Yes, it does. Back to the topic at hand....
Post Reply