KEP Dictation Argument: The Evidence

[_Kevin Graham]

Wade you have not demonstrated why anyone should pay you any mind whatsoever when it comes to this subject. All you have demonstrated is a blind loyalty to a wimp and a coward who goes by the name of William Schryver. A guy who is such a fake that when posing for the camera he gives people like Chris Smith a hug and a kiss, but days later online he is back to smack talking about him. The same is true for his attitude towards Brent Metcalfe. Only a wimp and a coward would say the things Will says online to other people, and yet he is careful to watch his tongue when he knows that person is within swinging distance. I am willing to bet money that when face to face, Will would never say Brent or myself is suffering from "hypogonadism." He will have that opportunity soon enough, and I'd bet $100 he won't, though that is a bet I'd love to lose, actually.

Now leaving your testicle-free gimp aside (I would say that to Will's face) I have demonstrated on multiple occassions why Will Schryver is a human being of low character. I have demonstrated time and time again that he is a coward who refuses to own up to his mistakes. I have demonstrated time and time again that he refuses to even engage those who have shown him to be a fraud (his hilairious refusal to answer Brent's questions last week was just classic!). Will Schryver is a joke of a man in every since of the term, and you are little more than his loyal sidekick who comes here to dish out dumb questions, acting like you have some kind of inside scoop about the "true meaning" of the KEP.

Ever since you made that idiotic statement about the facsimiles having nothing to do with the KEP, you showed me and everyone else familiar with this topic that you are a know-nothing who shouldn't be bothered with. In ten years I don't think you ever said two words about the KEP until Will's presentation. You're his parrot because he doesn't have the balls to defend his own idiocy. This is why he is having lunch "dates" (his words!) and "movie nights" with BYU professors, so he can warm up to them and get them to buy his BS. I wonder if they'd be so willing to go on "dates" with him and stay up to watch movies, if they knew William Schryver is a closet homosexual who has to go online and talk crap in order to compensate for his lack of virility in real life.

[_wenglund]

Hi Will,

I hope you and the lovely Mrs. Schryver are having a wonderful holiday.

It is understandable that you would be put off by Kevin's firestorm of deflective smoke. But, I think he is a bright fellow, and as resistent as he now seems to be to what is so obvious to us, he will eventually come around to reason. And, I suspect that with few exceptions, other good people here will come around as well--particularly when they realize that they can accept your most reasonable thesis and still hold onto their unbelief in the restored gospel, if not also for some their angst towards Joseph the prophet.

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

[_Kevin Graham]

Wade, you come over here showboating with nothing to show. You want to pretend we're the ones with a bias? As if we desperately want the Church to be false, and this explains our inability to see the "reasonable" in Will's idiotic thesis? You couldn't be more wrong. I wish the Church were true. I want it to be true, but the evidence is overwhelming against that prospect. You and Will are the ones who cannot afford to entertain the "reasonable" arguments that pretty much prove Joseph Smith was a fraud, which is why he is a coward who won't debate these matters and you do nothing but come here to throw out questionnaires.

Will's argument is so idiotic it is hard to even take it seriously anymore because he's presented no evidence other than his pompous say-so. Ever wonder why the only folks you can get to buy into this shite are other apologists? The critical side convinces apologists every year, which is astounding if you think about it. Osborne, myself and several others are just a few examples of people who were convinced Joseph Smith was a fraud based on the KEP evidence. You guys haven't been able to convince ANYONE from the other side now have you? None. All you do is come here to blow smoke acting as if you're contributing to the debate. Tell me wade, what the hell have you contributed? The extent of your knowledge of this subject goes only as far as Will's silly power point slide show, and you proved that you couldn't even understand that much either, since Will explicitly stated the KEP included the facsimiles.

So what does this say about the strength of your arguments when the only people you can brag about convincing, are other career apologists? In teh real world, it says your arguments are crap. In the apologetic world, well this is where confirmation bias kicks in and you start making excuses for the weakness of your argument by accusing the unconvinced of anti-Mormon bias.

[_wenglund]

Wade you have not demonstrated why anyone should pay you any mind whatsoever when it comes to this subject. All you have demonstrated is a blind loyalty to a wimp and a coward who goes by the name of William Schryver. A guy who is such a fake that when posing for the camera he gives people like Chris Smith a hug and a kiss, but days later online he is back to smack talking about him. The same is true for his attitude towards Brent Metcalfe. Only a wimp and a coward would say the things Will says online to other people, and yet he is careful to watch his tongue when he knows that person is within swinging distance. I am willing to bet money that when face to face, Will would never say Brent or myself is suffering from "hypogonadism." He will have that opportunity soon enough, and I'd bet $100 he won't, though that is a bet I'd love to lose, actually.

Now leaving your testicle-free gimp aside (I would say that to Will's face) I have demonstrated on multiple occassions why Will Schryver is a human being of low character. I have demonstrated time and time again that he is a coward who refuses to own up to his mistakes. I have demonstrated time and time again that he refuses to even engage those who have shown him to be a fraud (his hilairious refusal to answer Brent's questions last week was just classic!). Will Schryver is a joke of a man in every since of the term, and you are little more than his loyal sidekick who comes here to dish out dumb questions, acting like you have some kind of inside scoop about the "true meaning" of the KEP.

Ever since you made that idiotic statement about the facsimiles having nothing to do with the KEP, you showed me and everyone else familiar with this topic that you are a know-nothing who shouldn't be bothered with. In ten years I don't think you ever said two words about the KEP until WIll's presentation. You're his parrot because he doesn't have the balls to defend his own idiocy. This is why he is having lunch "dates" (his words!) and "movie nights" with others, so he can warm up to them and get them to buy his b***s***. I wonder if they'd be so willing to go on "dates" with him and stay up to watch movies, if they knew William Schryver is a closet homosexual who has to go online and talk s*** in order to compensate for his lack of virility in real life.

See Will,

You can tell when Kevin is starting to "get it" by how much he passionately avoids reasoned engagement and instead ratchets up the dismissive comments, the cussing, the personal attacks, and leveling all sorts of false accusations. If he hadn't figured out the obvious implications of my questions, he would have answered them instead of wasting three (make that four) posts pulling hamstrings side-stepping and dancing around the issue and being a jerk. He really is smart enough to "get it". It is just that he is somewhat challenged in figuring out how counter-productive his socially repelling behvior is to himself. But, I suspect that some day it will dawn on him as well.

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

[_Kevin Graham]

Will is put off by me? Will is the scum of Book of Abraham debate, pure and simple. The evidence for this is everywhere. That you would turn a blind eye to his hideous antics while pretending he is ignoring me because he is "put off" is nothing short of hilarious. This is the same guy who attacks Chris Smith because Will knows he will be ten times the Mormon scholar Will could only hope to be. He accuses Brent of hypogonadism, and yet when Brent is "put off" by this, you and your ilk interpret it as cowardice.

I challenge Will to debate me here all the friggin time but he won't because he is a pussy. He is a pussyin in real life and he is a pussy online just the same. He only talks tough because he is good at deceiving gullible twits like you. But he is an intellectual fraud and a coward and he knows I know it, which is why he refuses to address any of the numerous refutations I have presented him throughout his four year tenure as the Book of Abraham village idiot.

Oh he'll show up and blow smoke and deflect, but he won't engage any counter arguments I present. Such as his deceptive use of the KEP documents and his deceptive use of historical documents.

[_Kevin Graham]

Wade, I know you think there is a method to your madness, but you're just a parrot with nothing to offer. I presented this thread to lay out my position clearly, so stop pretending you want to know my position. Can't you read? Deal with the arguments or piss off. Daniel McClellan found out my position and then he took off after I proved he didn't have a sufficient grasp of the KEP documents. And you think you're going to do something useful?

Will is a small fish, but you're not even plankton on this subject. You have demonstrated virtually zero knowledge in this area, just a blind loyalty to anything apologetics (which is why Will likes you so much), so stop pretending refusal to entertain your incessant questionnaires has something to do with fear of dealing with their "implications." When in the hell have YOU ever been able to "stump" ANYONE? EVER??

I'm interested in debating those who actually know something on the subject. You guys are only interested in tearing down strawman, such as Will's idiotic assumption that we ever argued the GAEL was used to translate the entire Book of Abraham!!!

[_wenglund]

Six remarkably evasive posts and counting--all full of sound and furry.

I am woundering if the count will reach 10 by later this evening?

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

[_Kevin Graham]

The only really important thing, in terms of my theses, is that very few of the characters to which they gave "explanations" had any relationship to the papyri they purchased from Chandler, and those that can be found on the papyri attest no discernible relationship to one another such that it might be inferred that someone was trying to "translate" them.

Will makes a distinction about characters with "explanations" as if this has any apologetic value for his argument. So what if they didn't have meanings, yet? Obviously they were in the process of providing meanings, but hadn't gotten around to it before they abandoned the project. The point is, Joseph Smith and his scribes took characters from the extant papyrus virtually in sequence, thus further refuting the silly missing papyrus notion. Will was careful not to share this information in his deceptive presentation because it goes against his thesis. The less the papyri have to do with the GAEL, the better for Will's thesis. But virtually everything we know from history tells us that the extant papyri were used in translating the Book of Abraham, making the missing roll theory highly improbable. The list of evidences is just too overwhelming, and Will has dealt with none of them except to argue via assertion that Abr 1:12 (the real smoking gun here), based on highly questionable interpretation of the text-critical evidence, was a later addition by some mysterious person who managed to slip it into the official canonized publication without Joseph Smith's knowledge. Genius!

[_Kishkumen]

It is understandable that you would be put off by Kevin's firestorm of deflective smoke. But, I think he is a bright fellow, and as resistent as he now seems to be to what is so obvious to us, he will eventually come around to reason. And, I suspect that with few exceptions, other good people here will come around as well--particularly when they realize that they can accept your most reasonable thesis and still hold onto their unbelief in the restored gospel, if not also for some their angst towards Joseph the prophet.

All things considered, aspects of that post are pretty classy.

I do find it interesting that you would say that people can still "hold onto their unbelief" and yet accept Will's thesis. Of course, I don't think that has ever been at question. There is absolutely nothing that moves people to what is considered a firm testimony of Mormonism outside the belief that one has received a spiritual witness of its truthfulness.

Indeed, that is the whole sum of what is required; no more, no less. And I would wager that those who feel a need to rely on abstruse apologetic arguments about the Book of Abraham (because at this point, no matter where one stands on the issue, these arguments have decidedly long since passed into the realm of esoterica), they perhaps need a reminder of the real basis of their belief in Mormonism before they try to make heads or tails of this mess.

Now, if you are interested in feeding the interest of Mormon historians, well, that is something else entirely. I am sure many of us are eager to see what Will, you, and others come up with, whether we agree with it in the end or not. And I sincerely doubt that we will ever hold a grudge against Will for not having persuaded us, since the ride has already been so entertaining and has sparked a great deal of interest.

You see, the issues we are discussing can be of interest outside of deciding testimonies, and that is where I prefer to leave them.

[_Kevin Graham]

Wade, I'll do you a deal. Provide three... scratch that, provide ONE reason why anyone, especially me, should talk to you as someone who potentially has something to contribute to this subject. All you do is come here and throw out questionnaires and then run for the hills when you're proved wrong. It gets boring. We want Will to come here and be a man for once. We're tired of messing with his idiotic sychophants.

While you're counting my posts wade, why don't you see if you can count the 50+ posts by your cowardly mentor, who only comes here to cheer on you and Nomad? He is the guy behind the arguments and he won't defend them. Probably because he has yet to figure out how he plans to twist the evidence to support his conclusions.