Facsimile 3

[_Tobin]

There are no prophets in the LDS church. There are presidents.

That's pretty much been my determination about most Mormon prophets. It seems to be only an ecclesiastical title and they treat it as such. They don't seem to show much interest in the truth or even finding out what the truth may be.

[_Tobin]

Prophets are merely messengers. It is up to us to determine if the message is genuine or not.

It's pretty easy to determine that Joseph Smith's message isn't genuine. You appear to believe that God is some practical joker who makes his true church look completely bogus and then, for no reason at all, demands that you ask him if it's true or not.

When the spirit conflicts with reason and clear evidence, it's probably not the spirit.

Joseph Smith's message is there is a God and one should seek and speak with God as he did. If his message is genuine, then you should be able to do exactly that. If it isn't, then as you say - he's a false prophet, hack, fraud and so on.

[_Bob Loblaw]

Joseph Smith's message is there is a God and one should seek and speak with God as he did. If his message is genuine, then you should be able to exactly that. If it isn't, then as you say - he's a false prophet, hack, fraud and so on.

Say that you want to invest in a factory that takes sea water and converts it into diamonds. You research the company and find that the founder has a history of fraudulent activities and that the alleged "technology" he's selling does not exist. In fact, he's gathered in millions of dollars from investors but never produced anything or even built the factory. You tell him you're not interested in investing because it's obviously fake.

He says, "It might look like an obvious fraud to you, but don't worry about my criminal past or the lack of any reason to believe in what I'm doing. You need to ask your father if you should invest. I guarantee that if you ask him, he'll tell you to invest."

Would you ask your father, or would you feel rather stupid about asking such an inane question?

[_Tobin]

Joseph Smith's message is there is a God and one should seek and speak with God as he did. If his message is genuine, then you should be able to exactly that. If it isn't, then as you say - he's a false prophet, hack, fraud and so on.

Say that you want to invest in a factory that takes sea water and converts it into diamonds. You research the company and find that the founder has a history of fraudulent activities and that the alleged "technology" he's selling does not exist. In fact, he's gathered in millions of dollars from investors but never produced anything or even built the factory. You tell him you're not interested in investing because it's obviously fake.

He says, "It might look like an obvious fraud to you, but don't worry about my criminal past or the lack of any reason to believe in what I'm doing. You need to ask your father if you should invest. I guarantee that if you ask him, he'll tell you to invest."

Would you ask your father, or would you feel rather stupid about asking such an inane question?

Bob, it never hurts to get advice, no matter how inane the question is. It doesn't cost you anything and you two can have a good laugh afterwards.

[_Bob Loblaw]

Bob, it never hurts to get advice, no matter how inane the question is. It doesn't cost you anything and you two can have a good laugh afterwards.

I like to have an actual reason to believe in something. I'm funny that way.

[_Tobin]

Bob, it never hurts to get advice, no matter how inane the question is. It doesn't cost you anything and you two can have a good laugh afterwards.

I like to have an actual reason to believe in something. I'm funny that way.

As does any reasonable person. But keep in mind, that a false prophet will tell you not to seek and speak with God. After all, it seems like a very poor way to conduct a hoax if everyone seeks God and doesn't experience him.

[_Bob Loblaw]

As does any reasonable person. But keep in mind, that a false prophet will tell you not to seek and speak with God. After all, it seems like a very poor way to conduct a hoax if everyone seeks God and doesn't experience him.

It would be especially bad if different people got different answers, not that such a thing would ever happen.

[_Samantabhadra]

But keep in mind, that a false prophet will tell you not to seek and speak with God.

What? False prophets TELL you to seek and speak with God. They just refuse to acknowledge that God could have told you anything other than, this prophet is a real prophet. The point is not that they are telling you not to seek or speak with God; it's that they are telling you that you can only reach God by appealing to the (false) prophet.

Hey, that sounds familiar....

[_Chap]

But keep in mind, that a false prophet will tell you not to seek and speak with God.

What? False prophets TELL you to seek and speak with God. They just refuse to acknowledge that God could have told you anything other than, this prophet is a real prophet. The point is not that they are telling you not to seek or speak with God; it's that they are telling you that you can only reach God by appealing to the (false) prophet.

Hey, that sounds familiar....

How does Tobin know what a false prophet is like anyway? Is he just giving us his opinion - in which case, why should we take any notice?. Tobin is just this guy.

Or did his deity (a.k.a. The Panda) tell him? In which case, is Tobin just a sock puppet for the Panda?

[_Themis]

Tobin perhaps it would help if you articulated the "SPT" precisely, because I for one don't really understand the argument.

Sock Puppet Theory (SPT). It is the absurd idea held by many critics on this forum that instead of Mormon prophets being mere fallible human beings, they are instead God's sock puppets. They automatically are perfect and know all that God knows instead. Basically, they should be the "smartest" people on the planet because they are Mormon prophets. They should know everything there is to know about everything (science, philosophy, the scriptures, the gospel, God and so on). They wouldn't have their own biases, preconceptions, lack of knowledge, disinterest, weaknesses, and so on to prevent them from fully understanding or comprehending the truth.

It is ridiculous position, but there it is. I've decided that when one of the critics on this forum asserts this non-sense, I'll just label their argument as SPT and leave it at that.

And this is a classic example of a straw-man argument. It's one of the reason people can't have a discussion with you since you want to misrepresent their positions.