Arguments against the LDS Church

[_Who Knows]

BC - have you ever heard of the game - 6 degrees to kevin bacon (or something like that)?

[_Runtu]

BC - have you ever heard of the game - 6 degrees to kevin bacon (or something like that)?

The only thing I'm coming up with as far as a citation is a Kerry Shirts article.

[_Who Knows]

The only thing I'm coming up with as far as a citation is a Kerry Shirts article.

That's where he's getting it.

[_harmony]

10. members required to clean toilets

DAMN!! There IS someone else that is bugged by this! I just have never been brave enough to mention it.

Great minds think alike? Fools rush in where angels fear to tred? *wink*

I don't pay 10% of my income so I can have the privilege of cleaning toilets at the church house.

[_Bond...James Bond]

Great responses so far people. If you don't feel like reading this whole list just throw out some suggestions (even if you think they are obvious) and I'll try to keep the list going and make sure there is not too much overlap on arguments. I'm also highlighting some of my favorite responses so far.

Anyone got anything else?

The updated list:

1) Book of Mormon (dozens here by itself)
2) Book of Abraham
3) Lay priesthood (and their uneducated actions such as counseling, giving advise)
4) Church owning businesses/malls
5) Racist statements by Prophets
5) Modern Revelation (or lack thereof)
6) Sexism in the church (priesthood to men only, etc.)
7) LDS Prophets' statements on sexual issues (masturbation)
8) Kolob
9) De facto mandatory tithing
10) Callings (amount of time required, unwanted "jobs", unwanted toilet seat cleaning)
11) Questioning of kids on sexual issues
12) Mark Hoffmann episode
13) Polygamy, especially post-manifesto polygamy.
14). Organic evolution and creationism, as found in the standard works.
15) the Strengthening The Members Committee
16) The wholesale stealing of Masonic rites for Joseph's inspired temple ceremony.
17). Widespread use of church funds to enrich church leaders.
18) The Mountain Meadows Massacre.
19) Homophobia
20) God as an advanced Caucasian primate (image of God)
21) The need to believe what is good is actually bad, and what is bad is actually good
22) The strong emphasis on selfishness (do things so you can get blessings)
23) The motivating factor for all behavior consisting of blessings in the afterlife (ulterior motives for actions)
24) God as a being who in my opinion is a horrific, cruel, horrible, creature more liike the men of the tribal nomadic bands
25) The manipulative and coercive techniques to believe
26) The fact that people the world over are having powerful experiences similar to those of the LDS church (elitism)
27) The afterlife nonsense (Celestial, Terrestial, Telestial, Outer Darkness, etc)
28) The changing, altering, confusing, convoluted, unknown teachings/doctrine/practices (changes in God's teachings)
29) The complexity of the teachings that do not make sense
30) The need to deny reality to embrace something that seems nonsensical (suspension of reality)
31) The thwarting of individual creativiy and unique gifts to embrace a rigid role for women
32) The lack of evidence that the LDS church is any different than any other religion
33) A "plan" that makes absolutly no sense at all
34) The CKHL that is more like HELL than heaven
35) Elitism
36) The premortal life that COMPLETELY makes no sense whatsoever (Spirit children)
37) The idea of a war in heaven where we chose to come here to participate in this plan
38) Separation of families
39) The idea that little ceremonies and rituals that we do in this little tiny blink in the history of our universe determines the rest of eternity
40) The idea that God actually knew how this world would be and went with it
41) The idea that God's one and only true church would have such sorrow associated with it (depression)
42) The whole Adam and Eve idea
43) The whole Garden of Eden in Missouri thing
44) The Tower of Babel stuff
45) The need for temple rituals by proxy (including Baptism for the Dead)
46) The focus on the church as opposed to the world
47)The rule to not allow a couple to get married outside the temple followed by a sealing (in the US)
48) The lack of diversity and the emphasis on a world conforming to the image of 1950's in Utah
49) The "worship" of church leaders
50) The disengenuous research and teachings (think Huge Nibley)
51) The fear based nature of belief (punishment for not doing as the church commands)
52) The inability to document the single-most important event that's happened on earth since Christ's resurrection: the restoration of the M priesthood.
53) The lack of authority to start the church.
54) Sealings and marriages that were done prior to and without the restoration of the sealing power.
55) Rewriting of church history
56) the persistent insistence that all is well in Zion, when anyone with half a brain can figure out that all is not only not well in Zion, but Zion is under condemnation because of the actions of the leaders.
57) the emphasis on outward appearances and finances in TRI's, instead of emphasizing the basics of the gospel.
58) speeches about teased hair when 3 blocks away, homeless children are hungry. (speechs about unimportant matters by Church leaders)
59) the lack of accountability on every level.
60) No matter how hard i tried to get into it, i found church to be extremely boring, and a complete waste of time. (CHURCH IS BORING)
61) All of the emphasis placed on "keeping up appearances" (cliques in the church)
62) Non-member and non-temple recommend holders being unable to witness weddings.
63) Adam-God
64) Kinderhook Plates
65) Blood atonement
66) Prophets speaking as Prophets vs speaking as men
67) Keeping mentally handicapped people from witnessing temple weddings
68) Focusing on the dead rather than the living (believing the work will all be done for everyone in the millennium)
69) Promising to sacrifice everything to the building up of the church over helping and serving others
70) Stating opinion as fact (by Church leaders)
71) Not apologizing for mistakes/church actions
72) No correction of misleading teachings
73) The hurt that comes to families when a family member doesn't believe or leaves the church (family separation due to unbelief)
74) The teaching that those who let go of belief are followers of Satan, horrific sinners, or have been offended (villification of apostates)
75) De facto worship of Church leadership

Bond also adds:

76) The contortions by LDS Apologists to defend Mormonism
77) The priesthood ban for African-American until 1978

[_Jason Bourne]

10. members required to clean toilets

DAMN!! There IS someone else that is bugged by this! I just have never been brave enough to mention it.

Great minds think alike? Fools rush in where angels fear to tred? *wink*

I don't pay 10% of my income so I can have the privilege of cleaning toilets at the church house.

Yea! I may be petty but this really does bug me. We tithe and then we serve in callings and we get to cleant the Church too so the Church can save money and fire half the custodial staff!

[_Jason Bourne]

10) Callings (amount of time required, unwanted "jobs", unwanted toilet seat cleaning)

Ya gotta list the toilet thing seperatly man!

[_Runtu]

10) Callings (amount of time required, unwanted "jobs", unwanted toilet seat cleaning)

Ya gotta list the toilet thing seperatly man!

What amazes me is that there are never enough supplies at the church to clean it. They always ask people to bring their own vacuum cleaners because there's only one at the church. Cleaning the church doesn't really bother me that much, but it is indicative of the wide disparity between what the church requires of its members and what it gives in return.

[_beastie]

For me, the one issue that resulted in my loss of faith remains the biggest issue against the church, in my opinion. It's already on your list - it's the failure of personal revelation, and revelation in general. Come on, man, that's the whole reason the restoration was supposedly needed, and what sets it apart.... and the apologists themselves prove, time after time, that it just doesn't work reliably.

No one should take Juliann's blather seriously. The idea that the only thing critics have to say about the church is that Joseph Smith was "bad" and that the church is "bad" is a figment of her own wishful thinking.

[_Bond...James Bond]

10) Callings (amount of time required, unwanted "jobs", unwanted toilet seat cleaning)

Ya gotta list the toilet thing seperatly man!

What amazes me is that there are never enough supplies at the church to clean it. They always ask people to bring their own vacuum cleaners because there's only one at the church. Cleaning the church doesn't really bother me that much, but it is indicative of the wide disparity between what the church requires of its members and what it gives in return.

Does this count as "lack of supplies for callings by the Church" or "lack of return on tithing to the local Church"?