Are Mormonism and Human Evolution Compatible?

Post by **_barrelomonkeys** » Mon Sep 03, 2007 12:50 am

Nephi, I'm going to send you Guns, Germs, and Steel also. I have 2 copies.

PM me your address. I need to get rid of some of these.

_Nephi · Post by **_Nephi** » Mon Sep 03, 2007 12:54 am

barrelomonkeys wrote:
Nephi wrote:
barrelomonkeys wrote:So you're saying before the "fall", which was not really a choice, we just bumbled about?

After we had thought processes to recognize the consequences of our actions that we then had "the fall"?

Where is God in this equation?

I'm not following you!!!!!!!!! I'm trying!

We didn't "bumble about", but we didn't have a concept of good and evil. We went from "natural" to "manmade"... We went from being a part of nature to being separate from it (at least in our minds).

But where is God in evolution? Where is the choice to choose evil in your theory of the fall?

I'm completely serious when I tell you I want to understand what you're trying to tell me. I don't geddit.

I know you are being serious here, and I know you wanna understand my ideas on evolution here. Where is God? Who knows? In reality, God is hidden underneath the whole thing...

Again, God in the garden is just part of the myth. Maybe God is that sense that elephants had when the tsunami came racing towards India that mankind couldn't hear (the elephants are still not fallen, whereas we are)... Again, its just a guess.

Post by **_barrelomonkeys** » Mon Sep 03, 2007 12:57 am

Sethbag wrote:Evolution is absolutely incompatible with traditional Mormon beliefs and teachings, and the words of pretty much every LDS Prophet from Joseph Smith right on down to the present day. And don't let any LDS member tell you otherwise. The only way around this is either to deny that evolution actually happened, which is what the fundie Christian, fundie Jewish, and fundie Muslims do (and probably fundie other religions too), or else to deny that LDS actually believe what LDS have believed since Joseph Smith, and what LDS Prophets have taught down to this very day.

You have to actually deny that Adam and Eve having been the first human beings on Earth is really LDS doctrine.

You have to deny that LDS believe and teach that literally nothing on Earth died before Adam and Eve fell.

You have to do things like rendering Adam and Eve possibly mythological but their "important lessons" yet true.

Basically, the only way to reconcile traditional (as opposed to diehard mopologetic) Mormon teachings with evolution and other science, is to either wipe out one, or the other.

Literally every single LDS believer today who tells you that evolution is compatible with LDS teachings either has no clue what these things actually mean, or else is undercutting the words of past LDS prophets, current LDS teaching materials, and LDS study aids and whatnot in the scriptures. They aren't compatible at all, without eviscerating them.

I think most people have no idea what "these things actually mean". It's not just LDS.

I had to teach a class on evolution not too long ago, very simplistic, infront of a Baptist minister and hostile audience members. There were so many misconceptions and myths it was alarming!

Post by **_Sethbag** » Mon Sep 03, 2007 12:57 am

Guns, Germs, and Steel is a great book, and it's also one more book that creates a pretty good understanding of the bird's eye view of human population development and migration, which picture simply does not contain the elements of, say, the Book of Mormon, or the Bible-centric view of humankind's development starting 6,000 years ago with Adam and Eve.

For heaven's sake, the agricultural revolution had already happened before the time of Adam and Eve according to Biblical timelines.

So there are two problems. One, the religionists are simply wrong in their facts. Two, the fact that they are wrong undercuts their credibility as far as having any sort of God-given knowledge of things for which they actually claim to have some God-given knowledge. Bottom line is that they don't.

This goes triple for LDS claims, because it's LDS Prophets, Seers, and Revelators teaching as fact things like that nothing died on Earth before Adam and Eve "fell". This is so very wrong it's not even funny. It's ludicrous. Their credibility is shot down in flames by this, and by a lot of other things they've taught which conflict with reality.

_Nephi · Post by **_Nephi** » Mon Sep 03, 2007 1:00 am

by the way: I have never been told by any church authority that I have to literally believe ANYTHING about Adam and Eve.

Post by **_barrelomonkeys** » Mon Sep 03, 2007 1:03 am

Sethbag wrote:Guns, Germs, and Steel is a great book, and it's also one more book that creates a pretty good understanding of the bird's eye view of human population development and migration, which picture simply does not contain the elements of, say, the Book of Mormon, or the Bible-centric view of humankind's development starting 6,000 years ago with Adam and Eve.

For heaven's sake, the agricultural revolution had already happened before the time of Adam and Eve according to Biblical timelines.

So there are two problems. One, the religionists are simply wrong in their facts. Two, the fact that they are wrong undercuts their credibility as far as having any sort of God-given knowledge of things for which they actually claim to have some God-given knowledge. Bottom line is that they don't.

This goes triple for LDS claims, because it's LDS Prophets, Seers, and Revelators teaching as fact things like that nothing died on Earth before Adam and Eve "fell". This is so very wrong it's not even funny. It's ludicrous. Their credibility is shot down in flames by this, and by a lot of other things they've taught which conflict with reality.

This is why I'm sending the book to Nephi.

:)

And to anyone else that wants me to buy them a copy from Amazon. It's such a lovely read!
There's so much to know, it's amazing how much we don't even know we don't know! I find it startling that anyone would believe religious doctrine holds the answers to all questions.

Post by **_KimberlyAnn** » Mon Sep 03, 2007 1:03 am

Sethbag wrote:Evolution is absolutely incompatible with traditional Mormon beliefs and teachings, and the words of pretty much every LDS Prophet from Joseph Smith right on down to the present day. And don't let any LDS member tell you otherwise. The only way around this is either to deny that evolution actually happened, which is what the fundie Christian, fundie Jewish, and fundie Muslims do (and probably fundie other religions too), or else to deny that LDS actually believe what LDS have believed since Joseph Smith, and what LDS Prophets have taught down to this very day.

You have to actually deny that Adam and Eve having been the first human beings on Earth is really LDS doctrine.

You have to deny that LDS believe and teach that literally nothing on Earth died before Adam and Eve fell.

You have to do things like rendering Adam and Eve possibly mythological but their "important lessons" yet true.

Basically, the only way to reconcile traditional (as opposed to diehard mopologetic) Mormon teachings with evolution and other science, is to either wipe out one, or the other.

Literally every single LDS believer today who tells you that evolution is compatible with LDS teachings either has no clue what these things actually mean, or else is undercutting the words of past LDS prophets, current LDS teaching materials, and LDS study aids and whatnot in the scriptures. They aren't compatible at all, without eviscerating them.

I agree, Seth, and felt like Mormonism and evolution were incompatible when I was still a member.

It's as interesting watching Mormons who claim to believe in evolution twist and turn to justify their position as it is watching fundies make their own pseudo-science claims attempting to "prove" creationism! Well, it's interesting unless one happens to live with it, as I do. Then it's more irritating than interesting.

KA

Post by **_KimberlyAnn** » Mon Sep 03, 2007 1:05 am

barrelomonkeys wrote:This is why I'm sending the book to Nephi.

:)

And to anyone else that wants me to buy them a copy from Amazon. It's such a lovely read!
There's so much to know, it's amazing how much we don't even know we don't know! I find it startling that anyone would believe religious doctrine holds the answers to all questions.

How generous of you, Monkeys! I hope Nephi enjoys the book.

KA

_Nephi · Post by **_Nephi** » Mon Sep 03, 2007 1:11 am

KimberlyAnn wrote:It's as interesting watching Mormons who claim to believe in evolution twist and turn to justify their position...

I'm not twisting evolution. I am twisting (more so) the literal view of Adam and Eve.

Post by **_Sethbag** » Mon Sep 03, 2007 1:19 am

Nephi wrote:by the way: I have never been told by any church authority that I have to literally believe ANYTHING about Adam and Eve.

This doesn't change the fact that what I've said about Adam and Eve is still the doctrine of the LDS church, and is taught, and has been taught, from Joseph Smith right down to the modern day.

Ok, so you feel free to disbelieve LDS doctrine and still remain LDS. Good for you. How does this change the fact that LDS doctrine is in fact wrong? And how does your admitting this and disbelieving it help anything?