Why is my (mms) story, if true, of such concern to some?

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_wenglund
_Emeritus
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Re: Why is my (mms) story, if true, of such concern to some?

Post by _wenglund »

keene wrote:Speaking of style and approach...

Wade, I find that most of your exploritory questions come across as being sarcastic in tone. A lot of the time it seems as if you are fishing for a specific answer, and so you word your questions in a way that assumes such.

Just thought I'd let you know, since we were on the subject.


I appreciate the feedback. It is helpful to learn how I am coming across to various individuals.

By the way, do you have any suggestions on how I might rephrase the questions so that they don't come across a sarcastic? (Maybe pick an example or two from my recent posts)

Thanks, -Wade Englund-
_harmony
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Re: Why is my (mms) story, if true, of such concern to some?

Post by _harmony »

mms wrote:
harmony wrote:The thing is, if I was a TBM, your story is a bit too close to home. You sound like someone I might know. And like. And respect. And trust. And if you can start to doubt the veracity of the church's claims, then where does that leave me? I've literally bet my life on the truthfulness of the church's claims based on the testimonies of people like you; if I'm wrong about you, it's entirely possible I'm wrong about a lot of things, and that's just too painful to contemplate. I have to believe that Joseph was a good and honorable man who never lied and certainly never cheated on his wife, or else I lose more than just my way; I lose my family and my spouse. I have to believe that Joseph saw and talked with angels, translated gold plates into a book, and performed otherwise unheard of acts of charity, or else I become one of the hated, one of the defiled, one of the shunned. I can't believe that Joseph lied and cheated and bilked people out of their farms and inheritances. For me to believe that Joseph was a con man means I have to doubt everything every single thing I've been taught since the day I got baptised. Trusted people have lied to me; people I love have been misled and in turn have misled me.

There's a lot riding on your story, mms. More than just your own life. You and men like you are the backbone of the church. You are the glue that holds the whole thing together. If you start to doubt, the foundation on which I've built my life begins to shift like sand on the beach. And it scares me. And when I'm scared, I get angry. And when I get angry, I say things I wouldn't say normally.

And it's not just you. It's every doubting member...

Welcome to my world.


Wow. I must say that this is the single most difficult post I have had to read thus far in my recent journey, and I have read many, many posts. Talk about hitting close to home. Everyone who has ever come up to me to thank me for a talk I have given, to tell me how I have helped their faith, to thank me for my service on my mission, to thank me for my efforts on behalf of their child and family, just came flashing through my mind.


Your post struck such a cord with me. I apologize for burdening you any more than you already carried.

In order to cope with my own crisis of faith, after learning of the same things that disturbed you, with a little help from my friends on the boards, I can finally say that, after almost 10 years, I have come out on the other side of the deep black hole that threatened to swallow me whole. After literally shredding the boards in an attempt to make sense of what I found, I've mellowed considerably. And I did it by finally gaining an understanding of the church's place in the grand scheme of things... what it is, and most importantly what it isn't. My relationship with God is strong, even while my relationship with the church is problematic. What the church isn't covers a lot more ground than what it is. The problem I have right now is that I have glimpsed what it could be and it sorrows me no end that it is nowhere near what it could be.

The church, as in the doctrines, teachings, and policies as presently constituted, is not the gospel of Jesus Christ. It pains me to write that, but I have no doubt that the statement is true. It is not Godly, nor is it led by God, nor is it led by men with a special dispensation from God to lead it. The church was never meant to be confused with nor take the place of the gospel, and yet usurping and taking over the gospel as taught by Christ is what has happened. There is much that is good and godly about the church; unfortunately, there is too much that is all too human, and altogether too much of that humanness is perpetuated by our leaders. While I sustain our leaders as such, I also understand that they are simply men, and as men, they are altogether too easily led by stronger personalities and men with an agenda that isn't in the best interest of the members or mankind as a whole. We are a church in dire need of strength, strength of character and strength of conviction. Our leaders are too enarmoured of their own convictions to worry about whether or not they're following God's will, too convinced of their invincibility to worry about whether they're actually doing the right thing, and not at all humble or broken-hearted enough to do that which is entrusted (quite erronously, to my way of thinking) to them. Their stewardship is sadly lacking, for the most part, although there are the unexpected flashes of godliness that still can astound, should one be lucky enough to be able to catch a glimpse.

What passes for revelation now is recycled and outdated wishful thinking, not wisdom and certainly not God-breathed. Perhaps it never was. Perhaps it was always wishful thinking, from the beginning when Joseph started what has now grown to such modest proportions (in the grand scheme of things). We see ourselves as infinitly more important than we really are. We take enthocentricity to an entirely new level. We are a puffed up people, 'way beyond our true importance. And in all reality, there are so few Saints among us as to be nearly an endangered species! And virtually none of them reside on MAD (which is not to say they reside here either, but there is no doubt they don't reside on MAD).

Yet were our leaders to somehow actually be able to admit to past mistakes, to seek true repentence, to humble themselves enough to actually lead us where we need to go, I'm not sure the members could sustain the needed changes. So many things need to change, the task is almost gargantuan. The members need to first be taught the history, the true history, not the whitewashed adoring history they've been spoon-fed all their lives. The members need to let go of the hero worship of our pioneer ancestors. They were not Saints! They made mistakes. Let us learn from them. Old policies need to ditched (we all know which ones hurt the most), new open-hearted policies need to be instituted. The marginalized half of the membership needs to be welcomed into the fold, granted meaningful leadership opportunities, and their contribution recognized for the vital part it plays. Old incorrect doctrines need to be corrected. The endowment needs to be corrected. Donations need to be accounted for, those with stewardship need to be held accountable.

The list is so long and so difficult. And I'm so afraid our leaders are simply not men enough to be up to the task.

I love this church so much. I love what it could be. And I despair for what it is.
_keene
_Emeritus
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Joined: Mon Oct 23, 2006 7:05 pm

Re: Why is my (mms) story, if true, of such concern to some?

Post by _keene »

wenglund wrote:
keene wrote:Speaking of style and approach...

Wade, I find that most of your exploritory questions come across as being sarcastic in tone. A lot of the time it seems as if you are fishing for a specific answer, and so you word your questions in a way that assumes such.

Just thought I'd let you know, since we were on the subject.


I appreciate the feedback. It is helpful to learn how I am coming across to various individuals.

By the way, do you have any suggestions on how I might rephrase the questions so that they don't come across a sarcastic? (Maybe pick an example or two from my recent posts)

Thanks, -Wade Englund-


Easiest thing I recall is the post you made about moderating the forum, in which I responded quite harshly. The manner in which you phrased the questions made it come across as an attack on the moderating practices. Then in this post, the way you phrased your question seemed as if you were accusing mms.

I think what pushes it across as inflammatory is the mention of specific alternatives in your question. If you're looking to explore, there's no need to mention a specific alternative -- just count out the original. Make sense? Maybe not.
_mms
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Joined: Wed Oct 10, 2007 9:10 pm

Re: Why is my (mms) story, if true, of such concern to some?

Post by _mms »

harmony wrote:
Your post struck such a cord with me. I apologize for burdening you any more than you already carried.



No worries. I needed to read it and I have not been able to get it out of my mind since I did--not b/c its a burden, but b/c it was a lot to think about.


harmony wrote:
In order to cope with my own crisis of faith, after learning of the same things that disturbed you, with a little help from my friends on the boards, I can finally say that, after almost 10 years, I have come out on the other side of the deep black hole that threatened to swallow me whole. After literally shredding the boards in an attempt to make sense of what I found, I've mellowed considerably. And I did it by finally gaining an understanding of the church's place in the grand scheme of things... what it is, and most importantly what it isn't. My relationship with God is strong, even while my relationship with the church is problematic. What the church isn't covers a lot more ground than what it is. The problem I have right now is that I have glimpsed what it could be and it sorrows me no end that it is nowhere near what it could be.

The church, as in the doctrines, teachings, and policies as presently constituted, is not the gospel of Jesus Christ. It pains me to write that, but I have no doubt that the statement is true. It is not Godly, nor is it led by God, nor is it led by men with a special dispensation from God to lead it. The church was never meant to be confused with nor take the place of the gospel, and yet usurping and taking over the gospel as taught by Christ is what has happened. There is much that is good and godly about the church; unfortunately, there is too much that is all too human, and altogether too much of that humanness is perpetuated by our leaders. While I sustain our leaders as such, I also understand that they are simply men, and as men, they are altogether too easily led by stronger personalities and men with an agenda that isn't in the best interest of the members or mankind as a whole. We are a church in dire need of strength, strength of character and strength of conviction. Our leaders are too enarmoured of their own convictions to worry about whether or not they're following God's will, too convinced of their invincibility to worry about whether they're actually doing the right thing, and not at all humble or broken-hearted enough to do that which is entrusted (quite erronously, to my way of thinking) to them. Their stewardship is sadly lacking, for the most part, although there are the unexpected flashes of godliness that still can astound, should one be lucky enough to be able to catch a glimpse.

What passes for revelation now is recycled and outdated wishful thinking, not wisdom and certainly not God-breathed. Perhaps it never was. Perhaps it was always wishful thinking, from the beginning when Joseph started what has now grown to such modest proportions (in the grand scheme of things). We see ourselves as infinitly more important than we really are. We take enthocentricity to an entirely new level. We are a puffed up people, 'way beyond our true importance. And in all reality, there are so few Saints among us as to be nearly an endangered species! And virtually none of them reside on MAD (which is not to say they reside here either, but there is no doubt they don't reside on MAD).

Yet were our leaders to somehow actually be able to admit to past mistakes, to seek true repentence, to humble themselves enough to actually lead us where we need to go, I'm not sure the members could sustain the needed changes. So many things need to change, the task is almost gargantuan. The members need to first be taught the history, the true history, not the whitewashed adoring history they've been spoon-fed all their lives. The members need to let go of the hero worship of our pioneer ancestors. They were not Saints! They made mistakes. Let us learn from them. Old policies need to ditched (we all know which ones hurt the most), new open-hearted policies need to be instituted. The marginalized half of the membership needs to be welcomed into the fold, granted meaningful leadership opportunities, and their contribution recognized for the vital part it plays. Old incorrect doctrines need to be corrected. The endowment needs to be corrected. Donations need to be accounted for, those with stewardship need to be held accountable.

The list is so long and so difficult. And I'm so afraid our leaders are simply not men enough to be up to the task.

I love this church so much. I love what it could be. And I despair for what it is.


I appreciate your willingness to share as I work through these issues. It sounds like yours was a tough road and that you still feel a whole lot as a result. Again, thanks for sharing.
_Roger Morrison
_Emeritus
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Joined: Sat Nov 11, 2006 4:13 am

Post by _Roger Morrison »

Hi MMS, i'm late into your threads, and in my scanning i still don't really know "your story". I'd like to...

Harmony, your above posts here, leave me with a deep sense sympathy and respect for you. Since coming to this site, months ago, you have been one who always impressed me and at the same time puzzled me. Now, after reading your immediate posts, i respect you more and am puzzled less--in some ways.

You seem to be in a most uncomfortable position, even bordering on torturous. That you can't seem to extracate yourself from LDSism must be the ultimate pain... ATST, i have to wonder why IS that so difficult for You? I understand family ties, children praying for the redemption of Grand-parents, etc. I understand concluding deception and the disappointment ensuing, the feeling of violation et al.

Are those awakenings not the undoing of the knots that bind one to their abuser? You seem to be too intelligent and capable to remain in such personal spiritual turmoil and bondage? As an internet friend, all i can do is suggest, "you too can do what others have done." Until that time find what peace you can, wherever you can. Warm regards, Roger
_Gazelam
_Emeritus
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Joined: Thu Oct 26, 2006 2:06 am

Post by _Gazelam »

Do oyu have a blog with your "story" on it? I have no idea what your talking about here.
We can easily forgive a child who is afraid of the dark; the real tragedy of life is when men are afraid of the light. - Plato
_Mercury
_Emeritus
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Joined: Tue Oct 24, 2006 2:14 pm

Re: Why is my (mms) story, if true, of such concern to some?

Post by _Mercury »

mms wrote:Don't get me wrong--I only had so much room in the subject line and did not mean to make that sound as self-absorbed as it does. What I meant was, why does my story generally as opposed to specifically, which I believe now is the story of many, considered so potentially damaging, if true?

It seems that some TBM's (certainly not all), both here and at MA&D, see my story to be a serious problem and go to great effort to try to persuade others that it is fraudulent. I simply do not understand why. Seriously, I do not get it. It is a simple story, really. And I imagine (and see now on the other thread) that there are, have been, and will be, many like me, who are active contributing members who come across historical aspects that cause significant concern, doubt, etc.

In short, why does it get such a strong reaction from the likes of Crock, Pahoran, Selek, Juliann, etc., etc. It has baffled me from day one. I mean, so what if I am some ignorant HP who should have known about polyandry and the papyrus issues, but didn't, and then learned and am concerned? What is the big deal to these folks? Why call me (and the others in my situation) frauds, trolls . . . why go to such effort to try to persuade people that the story is not authentic. What about its potential authenticity is of such significant concern?


To a Mormon,

Faith promoting == True
Faith deprecating == Not True

Its as simple as that
And crawling on the planet's face
Some insects called the human race
Lost in time
And lost in space...and meaning
_Roger Morrison
_Emeritus
Posts: 1831
Joined: Sat Nov 11, 2006 4:13 am

Post by _Roger Morrison »

"Historicity" of LDSism was not as important to my enlightenment as was/is the empirical evidence that they, (LDS hierarchy) generally speaking, differ little from most other church leaderships. Other than in name, title, and designation. Nor does the Mormon church nor do its patrons...

The unique 'covenants' and secret-sacreds, to me, identified them more with the occult, than with the Universal message of the carpenter's son. Check-list judgement of worthiness is simply secular elitist, and without precedence in the teachings of Jesus. (Maybe that bit of history is worth noting?) Jesus taught the commonality of humanity; that "God" loved all; women were equal in Jesus' scope; (not in Paul's conditioning) wealth accumulation was greed; none favoured >>>>

When LDSism is seen as it really is, it differs little from any other Sunday-go-to-meeting church. Why leave it? Why not leave it? Strictly a personal determination. Like anything else ingested, what some enjoy makes others sick... Pull up a chair, or push away from the table... For every thing their is a
(r)season... Warm regards, Roger
_why me
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Post by _why me »

I think that the problem mms experienced is one that is often experienced in cyberworld. We cannot see the person who is posting. We only have his or her words and such words are left open to our own interpretations. But we cannot see the human being behind the words.

Mms comes across as a great person. But he or she was banned from MAAD. I do believe that they had their reasons but basically, when a board is in operation, the person, the human gets left behind and the posts become the real essence of the human being. And this would be a false premise.

I do think mms that you may be banned but there is a chance for your ban to be lifted. Go to another computer and write a message to one of the mods and express regret for the ban and then promise to be a good boy or girl and asked to be let on again. Tell them your story from the heart. I think that it would work.

Also, I would suggest posting in the fellowship thread or LDSforums for dialogue and not debate.
_mentalgymnast

Post by _mentalgymnast »

truth dancer wrote:Hi MG...

34 O Lord, I have trusted in thee, and I will trust in thee forever. I will not put my trust in the arm of flesh; for I know that cursed is he that putteth his trust in the arm of flesh. Yea, cursed is he that putteth his trust in man or maketh flesh his arm.


Wow!

I am one of the cursed for I did indeed trust some men. No question.

I went with the scriptures that talk about faith, about not leaning unto thy own understanding, about following our leaders.

I trusted Joseph Smith, various prophets, various scriptures written by men. I trusted church leaders, men who claimed to know, men who told me they were inspired and received inspiration. Men I thought were honest and honorable.

I trusted them when they told me God was at the helm of the church. I trusted them when they told me they were special witnesses of Christ. I trusted them when I believed the prophets received truth from Jesus Christ himself.

And, I was cursed for it.

When I finally decided to trust and follow my own inspiration... my own heart and mind, the curse was removed right along with my trust of these men and my belief in the LDS church.



~dancer~



A number of years ago when I was at wits end in regards to the church and all of the stuff I was finding out, I went to talk to an uncle of mine. Retired BYU professor, served in a Stake Presidency and was a Bishop. Stalwart guy in the church. I came away from the conversation with him taking one thing that I'll always remember. He said that the only time he really takes anything seriously that comes out of SL is when it is underneath the letterhead of the first presidency with each one of their signatures at the bottom.

In other words's he didn't let much of the periphery stuff that wasn't considered to be core principles, doctrine, and practice bother him to the extent that these things became deal breakers. He personally had been through the wringer at BYU back during the Wilkensen years. Had personally been on the hot seat and sought intervention from some of the trustees. This guy has been around the block. He's published a book dealing with a segment of early Mormon history.

So I think that you're right in some respects. Arm of the flesh means relying on any man/woman under conditions in which they may have partial light/partial discernment. We each are the final arbiter as to what is right for us and our families. Even so, I don't know that understanding this to be the case negates the possibility that God's work, with his stamp of approval/authority, is accomplished as the three fold mission of the church moves onward.

Regards,
MG
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