Missionary Funds and Tithing--Separate?

[_asbestosman]

Then again, Pres. Faust was the one who praised those South American LDS for tearing the fillings clean out of their heads in order to fund the Porto Allegre Temple.

Thanks for that "relevant" insight to the discussion. I'm sure abestos will consider this.

At first blush I thought Scratch's comment rather lacking in relevance. However, upon further reflection it seems it is in fact relevant in showing how the church expects not only tithing as a sacrifice, but sometimes even the gold from one's own teeth. *sigh*.

I'm fine with voluntary sacrifice. I'm fine with one-time sacrifices where I miss a family vacation one year in order to help a struggling family/ward member. I'm fine with fasting once a month and dontaing a generous offering for that (more than what I saved by fasting). I am not ok with having the expectation of big sacrifice put upon me time and time again so that I am forced to become the one in need. I want to be self-sufficient. Last I checked, the church did too. I'm even less ok when the person giving me the guilt-trip gets to go on vacations himself and still has a house, retirement, and so on. If I'm expected to give those up then the guilt-tripper needs to do the same or shut up.

By the way, I did NOT feel like President Faust was giving me a guilt-trip.

[_Ray A]

At first blush I thought Scratch's comment rather lacking in relevance. However, upon further reflection it seems it is in fact relevant in showing how the church expects not only tithing as a sacrifice, but sometimes even the gold from one's own teeth. *sigh*.

It's not the quote I have a problem with, it's the author.

I had a problem with tithing since 1985, after I read Quinn's Dialogue article. Dave's website makes far more relevant points about how tithing money is spent, and he doesn't have a personal axe to grind, like Scratch does. The responses to his thread on tithing are also very interesting, as many of them come from active, believing Mormons. I place quite a bit of weight on an author's credibility, and I think Dave has that.

[_ludwigm]

Please see "http://www.ldschurchtemples.com/portoalegre"

Porto Alegre Brazil Temple
102nd operating temple
Porto Alegre Brazil LDS (Mormon) Temple
© 2005, Jason George. All rights reserved.
Location: Rua General Salvador Pinheiro, 50, Vila Jardim, Porto Alegre, Rio Grande do Sul, Brazil.
Site: 2 acres.
Exterior Finish: Cotton white granite from Ceara State of Brazil.
Temple Design: Classic modern, single-spire design.
Number of Rooms: Two ordinance rooms and two sealing.
Total Floor Area: 10,700 square feet.
Announcement: 30 September 1997
Groundbreaking and Site Dedication: 2 May 1998 by James E. Faust
Public Open House: 2–9 December 2000
Dedication: 17 December 2000 by Gordon B. Hinckley

History

The Porto Alegre Brazil Temple is the third temple to be dedicated in the nation of Brazil. The temple's location overlooks the city from the east toward a large river and port for which the city is named.

President Faust turned the ceremonial first shovelful of earth during the groundbreaking ceremony. After, he invited a young girl and boy to come help him with the digging. They not only came forward and assisted him, but the little girl also waited for him the next day at the Campinas regional conference to give him a hug of appreciation.

He emphasized the need to sacrifice for temple building and shared how members in Argentina found ways to donate during the construction of the São Paulo Brazil Temple. They gave the gold from their dental work to help pay for the temple. He said that he had purchased some of the gold fillings for more than the market price to share with congregations the nature of the sacrifice made by these members (Church News, 9 May 1998).

[_Roger Morrison]

Hi asbestosman, an interesting 'name' for someone feeling he's being 'burned' LOL! Sorry, i couldn't help it ;-) I am in sympathy with you, for several reasons... You did write:

Note, I'm not blaming the church for this. I just feel frustrated that I have conflicting obligations and I despise guilt-trips.

And have since repeated that sentiment several times. "Me thinks thou tends to protesteth too much."

Zeroing in, IF You were not LDS, You would not have the problem that currently confronts You. Blame the EQP as you wish. Enjoy the comfort of your past Ward. But please, do not lay as much blame at the feet of your wife as i read your sense of frustration is tending you to do, Bro.

I respectfully suggest you are facing the real responsibilities of spousing AND parenting. Which calls for constant assessment, reassessment and decision makings that very often are initially difficult to make. I sense you're EQ might be effecting your IQ...

This is not a question of the heart. It is simply the allocation of scarce resources... A lot to consider... Good luck... Warm regards, Roger

[_Inconceivable]

Asbestosman,

The guilt your EQP is projecting toward you is only what is rolling down hill. What evidence do you have that guilt is an original idea of a lowly EQP? Only the bishop can approve of fundraising so long as it falls within the guidlines of the Manual of Instructions

There are certain times where it is perfectly fine to just say "no". This answer is good. If anything, it might give the manipulator a chance to perhaps re-evaluate his troubling approach to solving problems that are not really yours. At this moment, the EQP thinks it's the church's entitlement to not only ask for but to recieve whatever greases the skids of their pet programs.

I believed in saying yes to everything for many years (like my ancestors before me - it's our legacy). My wife and I had always been full tithe payers even in the most desperate of times. I sacrificed myself and family for the blessing of the church. For some years we didn't have vacations to postpone. There was a few summers where the church building's air conditioning was set to 68-70 while ours was at 85+. My poor wife gave birth to our third son that summer. Call me stupid (that's when ETB declared that God insisted to "let the children come naturally"). I've been ashamed of such blind obedience. Though I forgive myself, we are where we're at because of these choices.

I see it all so differently now.

-------------

The best thoughts I can give you if you intend to remain a Mormon is this -

Say "no", then begin a missionary fund program for and with your OWN kids. ..so when that time comes for them, you won't have to whine to a bishop to beg others to solve your problems.

My impression is that you have already done the latter (we did too). That's good.


(sorry for the long post)

[_Who Knows]

for what it's worth, I'm not blaming the church, nor am I blaming GA's or whatnot. I'm blaming my EQ pres for giving me a guilt-trip.

Well, earlier you said (referring to the fact that the church does not disclose their finances):

Frankly that is a reason I'm feeling a bit upset.

I guess I'm confused.

[_asbestosman]

for what it's worth, I'm not blaming the church, nor am I blaming GA's or whatnot. I'm blaming my EQ pres for giving me a guilt-trip.

Well, earlier you said (referring to the fact that the church does not disclose their finances):

Frankly that is a reason I'm feeling a bit upset.

I guess I'm confused.

Well, I'm probably not thinking clearly when I'm upset, but I believe I made that statement thinking that I'm only upset with a lack of financial disclosure when people in the church say tithing isn't enough after all and I really am obligated to sacrifice more. If that's really the case, they either need to disclose the finances to me, or they need to quit telling me that God doesn't "need" tithing to run the church, but it's just there to bless me and that I won't get more blessings by paying over 10% tithing.

[_asbestosman]

But please, do not lay as much blame at the feet of your wife as I read your sense of frustration is tending you to do, Bro.

Actually, my wife appears fairly sympathetic to my feelings. She despises guilt-trips too.

[_Roger Morrison]

But please, do not lay as much blame at the feet of your wife as I read your sense of frustration is tending you to do, Bro.

Actually, my wife appears fairly sympathetic to my feelings. She despises guilt-trips too.

That's what good wives do. Good husbands attempt to make it unneccesary for their wives to extend sympathy.

I respectfully suggest you might be facing a reality for You, that was not a reality of many of Us Old-folks. While one can easily say, "it's all relative..." and to some degree it might be. However, finances--cash in hand, or credit-lines such as mortgages, etc--play a far more significant role than immediately following the second WW. Vegetable gardens were not as yet lawns. Jobs came searching for employees. Property values hadn't escalated. Families could get bye with one employed. Wants had not yet become needs at an exilerated pace; or is that vice-versa? Expectations were not stimulated by an increasingly sophisticated advertising industry, etc>>>>>>>>

Unfortunately, you are afixed to an Institution that tends to live-in-the-past under conditions, circumstances, policies & practices that are out moded agrarianistic and indifferent to personal needs in our complex society, IMSCO, that is.

One size does not fit all. No one buys their way into heaven. Fees and dues under any name are nothing more, nor less, than Institutional Income--tax free, to Churches. And yet some seem to think, "...my contributions MUST be on pre-taxed income..." DUUHH?? Family-first is one of the come-ons to LDSism. So, Bro. stand up, or shut up... Just kidding, of course ;-)... Warm regards, Roger

[_harmony]

There are certain times where it is perfectly fine to just say "no". This answer is good. If anything, it might give the manipulator a chance to perhaps re-evaluate his troubling approach to solving problems that are not really yours. At this moment, the EQP thinks it's the church's entitlement to not only ask for but to recieve whatever greases the skids of their pet programs.

Actually, this is incorrect. Anyone who is endowed covenanted to give whatever was necessary in order to build up the Kingdom. That includes everything, as in every last thing they earn, own, or expect to ever have. That is what that covenant says, and if Asbestosman is endowed, he knows of which I speak.