Prof. P Throws a Feeble Counterpunch

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_malkie
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Post by _malkie »

Ray A wrote:
harmony wrote:
Why do you have to know anything about Scratch, in order to debunk the argument?


Because if Scratch is lying, or avoiding his real motives for attacking every and anything Mormon, then he's a complete SHAM. If, for example, he is really gay, but posing as a heterosexual, married and all that, but believes in the Church, and is SO cautious to hide his real identity - he could be anything! He knows, for example, that IF he is gay, none of his arguments would be taken seriously, and would be immediately dismissed by Mormons. But he wants credibility! And he can't do that by telling who he really is!

So let Scratch declare who he really is. His obsession with Mike Quinn, and gay issues, is one deadset give-away.

Been lurking for a while, but must jump in here.

If Scratch's arguments would be "immediately dismissed by Mormons" if he is gay, does that not say more about the prejudice of Mormons than it does about the validity of Scratch's arguments?

Or are you just saying that gayness is an obstacle to the generation of valid argument?

Or what exactly is it that you're saying - I mean, what of relevance are you saying?
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Maksutov: "... if you give someone else the means to always push your buttons, you're lost."
_Ray A

Post by _Ray A »

malkie wrote:If Scratch's arguments would be "immediately dismissed by Mormons" if he is gay, does that not say more about the prejudice of Mormons than it does about the validity of Scratch's arguments?


See my above reply to Harmony. It's the quality (or lack thereof) of Scratch's arguments I'm talking about (attack, ad hominem), or his negative focus. Agendas would be immediately dismissed.

malkie wrote:Or are you just saying that gayness is an obstacle to the generation of valid argument?


Not at all. I don't dismiss Quinn, except in some circumstances, like when he attempted to show (by distorting context) that Joseph Smith "approved" of homosexual relations, which even the Tanners took issue with. That is certainly worthy of dismissal, because it's agenda-ridden.

malkie wrote:Or what exactly is it that you're saying - I mean, what of relevance are you saying?


Quit the sarcasm and ask a more relevant question.
_Trevor
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Post by _Trevor »

Gadianton wrote:by the way, for clarification, I do get that the distinction between debunking and methodological naturalism. Though sometimes that distinction is strained, I will admit there is generally a difference. What trever is talking about follows the lines of MN, what I'm talking about in relation to FARMS apologetic work is fairly decisively within 'methodological supernaturalism' and niether that nor the debunking of it is typical for scholarship.


When it comes to scholarship, I am a complete naturalist.
“I was hooked from the start,” Snoop Dogg said. “We talked about the purpose of life, played Mousetrap, and ate brownies. The kids thought it was off the hook, for real.”
_Trevor
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Post by _Trevor »

Gadianton wrote:But, given that it's not likely to have its day in an academic conference or peer-reviewed journal, as you acknowledge, the conversation will be with weekend warriors, so to speak. Is that in itself bad? No. But, the problem is that FARMS will claim that its critics aren't qualified to make an assessment. That they are producing scholarship that is no different at all than what they might do in their mainstream day-jobs. So now we come full circle, because obviously, if the stuff was standard fare, then it would be published in peer-reviewed journals and presented at academic conferences. So then, Trever, you must see the stimulus for proposing a presentation.


Well, people like Ritner and Price have joined the conversation. They do not spend a great deal of time with it. And, I don't think they will consistently follow it either. Most scholars outside of the LDS world have better things to do than trade barbs with LDS apologists. They make worthwhile contributions and then move on to their main work. It is difficult to make a profession of challenging religious claims, because people generally don't approve of it. They realize that they live in glass houses, and that ultimately religion is about subjective experience of things that from at least one perspective seem ludicrous.

LDS apologia is an armchair endeavor. The notion that one needs to understand Mesoamerican archaeology or Hebrew linguistics in order to understand Mormonism is simply untrue. LDS people who know these fields may feel that their faith is enriched by putting their faith in the context of these fields, or vice versa, but it really is not necessary to the study of Mormonism to know this stuff. In fact, I would say that to pursue one of these fields for the sole purpose of debunking Mormon claims is a royal waste of time. Once a Mormon makes a claim that involves placing the Book of Mormon in an ancient context, he or she has crossed the line from a "naturalist methodology" to a "supernaturalist methodology."

Prudent scholars who operate in a naturalist paradigm will neither follow them there nor waste their time refuting what ultimately relies on untestable claims. Sure, one could comment on the lack of identifiable Nephite remains in the ancient world, but when one has absolutely no reason to suppose the Book of Mormon is ancient in the first place (i.e. the person does not have sufficient evidence or a testimony to justify supposing its antiquity), why bother?

In saying this I am not trying to insult LDS scholars who do find personal satisfaction in faith-based scholarship. They are certainly not alone in doing so. Frankly, the search for a historical Jesus is just about equally productive from a secular point of view. All I am saying is that the kind of work I value most is conducted in a naturalist paradigm, which I see as best suited for secular academics. Those who think similarly are not likely to waste their time on LDS arguments, because, to them, it would be a waste of time. The only reason I am here is because I was raised LDS and I find the study of Mormonism as a 19th century phenomenon very rewarding.
“I was hooked from the start,” Snoop Dogg said. “We talked about the purpose of life, played Mousetrap, and ate brownies. The kids thought it was off the hook, for real.”
_malkie
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Post by _malkie »

Ray A wrote:
malkie wrote:If Scratch's arguments would be "immediately dismissed by Mormons" if he is gay, does that not say more about the prejudice of Mormons than it does about the validity of Scratch's arguments?


See my above reply to Harmony. It's the quality (or lack thereof) of Scratch's arguments I'm talking about (attack, ad hominem), or his negative focus. Agendas would be immediately dismissed.

malkie wrote:Or are you just saying that gayness is an obstacle to the generation of valid argument?


Not at all. I don't dismiss Quinn, except in some circumstances, like when he attempted to show (by distorting context) that Joseph Smith "approved" of homosexual relations, which even the Tanners took issue with. That is certainly worthy of dismissal, because it's agenda-ridden.

malkie wrote:Or what exactly is it that you're saying - I mean, what of relevance are you saying?


Quit the sarcasm and ask a more relevant question.

Sorry if you disapprove of the sarcastic tone.
Your comments questioning Scratch's sexual orientation certainly did not give me the impression that you were concerned with "the quality (or lack thereof) of Scratch's arguments".
I still believe that those comments were totally irrelevant.
NOMinal member

Maksutov: "... if you give someone else the means to always push your buttons, you're lost."
_barrelomonkeys
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Post by _barrelomonkeys »

Gadianton wrote:That's not entirely true, Ray. I know a little bit about Scratch. :) He does drive a hard bargain though on information swaps.


Well that just irritates the hell out of me!
_Some Schmo
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Post by _Some Schmo »

I think Ray is gay. It would explain a lot, like his obsession with being an ass.
God belief is for people who don't want to live life on the universe's terms.
_The Nehor
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Post by _The Nehor »

Some Schmo wrote:I think Ray is gay. It would explain a lot, like his obsession with being an ass.


Homophobe :)
"Surely he knows that DCP, The Nehor, Lamanite, and other key apologists..." -Scratch clarifying my status in apologetics
"I admit it; I'm a petty, petty man." -Some Schmo
_Some Schmo
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Post by _Some Schmo »

The Nehor wrote:
Some Schmo wrote:I think Ray is gay. It would explain a lot, like his obsession with being an ass.


Homophobe :)


Do not misconstrue... I'm not afraid of homosexuals, nor do I dislike them.

I am, however, afraid of asses who expose themselves.
God belief is for people who don't want to live life on the universe's terms.
_Ray A

Post by _Ray A »

Some Schmo wrote:
Do not misconstrue... I'm not afraid of homosexuals, nor do I dislike them.


Too late, you've already "exposed" yourself as a homophobe. Posters get slammed for a lot less than correlating asses with gays, as if they don't have meaningful relationships.
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