For Beastie--When a person resigns

[_Ray A]

Actually Ray I am fairly sure I am correct in this case. No letter necessary.

I'm obviously now a dinosaur in this regard :) I'll have to place my own experience in the "Old Testament", when a Church court was the only way out of the Church.

[_beastie]

My children were all blessed but none baptized. Two are not over 18, so their names should be off, right? But I do still have one under 18 (for six more months). So most likely their paternal grandparents are supplying the ward with current information on their address and phone number, which happens to be mine, as well. Now why the phones calls are for ME and not them is anyone's guess.

I'm not whining about this, just stating a fact. It doesn't happen that often, and when it does I politely tell the individual I'm no longer a member and not interested. That lasts for a while, probably until the callings turn over. The only reason I brought this up was to assert that I have left the church alone, while it - in terms of members acting in callings - has not left me alone.

[_truth dancer]

I do not think so. They tell you to contact your local bishop. SLC Sends this stuff back to bishops. Oddly not the letter, but a notice that the person requested to have their name removed.

Again, based on reading the reports of several folks, I'm pretty sure as soon as someone requests her/his name be removed it is legally binding.

While the church of course does try to have the Bishop contact the person, and give them a waiting period and all that, legally, none of it matters.

If I recall correctly, legally, the church is suppose to honor the request of the person asking for name removal whether the requests goes to SLC or their Bishop.

In other words, while the church has its protocol, the law may be something else.

~dancer~

[_charity]

My children were all blessed but none baptized. Two are not over 18, so their names should be off, right? But I do still have one under 18 (for six more months). So most likely their paternal grandparents are supplying the ward with current information on their address and phone number, which happens to be mine, as well. Now why the phones calls are for ME and not them is anyone's guess.

I'm not whining about this, just stating a fact. It doesn't happen that often, and when it does I politely tell the individual I'm no longer a member and not interested. That lasts for a while, probably until the callings turn over. The only reason I brought this up was to assert that I have left the church alone, while it - in terms of members acting in callings - has not left me alone.

I have an idea the reason they call you and not the children is because you are the parent and the children are minors.

Again, based on reading the reports of several folks, I'm pretty sure as soon as someone requests her/his name be removed it is legally binding.

I don't know how much civil law can get involved with religious matters. I think a court case referred to earlier involved children in a custody case. The ex-member, non-custodial parent didn't want the children baptized or something like that.

[_beastie]

I have an idea the reason they call you and not the children is because you are the parent and the children are minors.

They don't contact me about my children. They contact me about me.

Do you agree with my overview of the situation? Ie, I have left the church alone, but they have not left me alone.

[_truth dancer]

Hi Charity,

I don't know how much civil law can get involved with religious matters.

Seems the law states people can withdraw from a church as they wish.

I think a court case referred to earlier involved children in a custody case. The ex-member, non-custodial parent didn't want the children baptized or something like that.

Nope... the church has been sued for their practice of not honoring a person's request to withdraw from the church at her/his request, or making them jump through hoops, (write letters, meet with leaders, wait a period of time, etc).

My understanding is that the church lost and is required by law to honor the request of the individual.

~dancer~

[_charity]

I have an idea the reason they call you and not the children is because you are the parent and the children are minors.

They don't contact me about my children. They contact me about me.

Do you agree with my overview of the situation? Ie, I have left the church alone, but they have not left me alone.

Yes.

But who are "they?" Do you think it is "THE CHURCH?" Or some individual member (bishop or whoever) trying to rescue a lost sheep? Or your family members?

[Anonymous]

There are two legal precendents that I know of, Guinn v. The Church of Christ and the Norman Hancock lawsuit (settlement out of court). Both of these are covered on the website TD mentioned, mormonnomore.com (where you can find a lot of valuable information about resignation besides these two legal cases which seem to have changed excommunication only to resignation).

To quote from the website's summary (with some important parts bolded):

In Guinn v. The Church of Christ, Marian Guinn, a member of the Church of Christ of Collinsville, OK, hand delivered her resignation to the minister after he told her he was going to excommunicate her for fornication. The minister refused to honor the resignation, went ahead with the 'excommunication' and then announced it from the pulpit. Guinn sued and was awarded $390,000. On appeal the Oklahoma Supreme Court ruled that Guinn's resignation was effective immediately and that anything the church or the minister did after the minister received Guinn's resignation was tortable. In other words, she could sue for anything they did after she resigned. The court ruled that with her resignation Guinn withdrew her consent to being treated as a member and she withdrew her consent to being subject to church discipline.

Of extra importance is the fact that the court ruled that the right to freedom of religion also includes the right to unilaterally resign from a church.

In 1985 the Mormon church 'excommunicated' Norman Hancock AFTER he submitted a letter of resignation to the church. Hancock filed an $18 million lawsuit against the church, saying a person has a right to voluntarily resign from a church. The suit was settled out of court and the settlement was sealed. An account on line reports that Hancock filed the suit himself, without the aid of a lawyer, after studying the Guinn case. The same account says that church lawyers started discussing with Hancock just how much money he wanted, but he told them he didn't want their money, that what he wanted was to have his name cleared. Church representatives agreed to change the records such that there would no longer be any record of an 'excommuication': the records would show that he resigned (that he asked for 'name removal').

The Hancock case shows that the church is willing to settle out of court when someone sues because the church 'excommunicates' them after they've resigned their membership. There were some defamation issues in the Hancock case that do not apply to most other cases, however.

Jason, I think this is what TD and Ray A are refering to when they say "its legal once its in writing:" i.e., once you've formally declared your resignation you are "out" no matter how long the church's subsequent paperwork takes.

[_beastie]

Yes.

But who are "they?" Do you think it is "THE CHURCH?" Or some individual member (bishop or whoever) trying to rescue a lost sheep? Or your family members?

These are people acting in their callings for the CoJCoLDS. I don't care why they are doing it. I know they want to "save" me. They are disregarding the express wishes of an adult woman who has made her wishes very clear.

I'm glad you agree that I have left the church alone, while the church has not left me alone. You have now entered into the arena of providing reasons for their actions. Perhaps now you can understand that "anti Mormons" who "can't leave the church alone" have reasons that seem equally valid to them.

[_skippy the dead]

I have an idea the reason they call you and not the children is because you are the parent and the children are minors.

They don't contact me about my children. They contact me about me.

Do you agree with my overview of the situation? Ie, I have left the church alone, but they have not left me alone.

Yes.

But who are "they?" Do you think it is "THE CHURCH?" Or some individual member (bishop or whoever) trying to rescue a lost sheep? Or your family members?

"Trying to rescue a lost sheep" - LOL!

Sorry - somehow that rubs me completely the wrong way, particularly when someone has explicitly severed her link to the organization.