the placebo effect

[_The Nehor]

Do you ever consider that Joseph Smith was the author of confusion?

..or man. Certainly. Yet the miracles are intermixed with doctrine he is purported to be the author (or revelator) of.


Nehor,

With all due respect, I think you are still there.

You're a pretty decent guy because it appears that you don't live the example of Joseph Smith. Why would you affiliate yourself with such a dirtbag?

It has always been taught that it is "all or nothing". It is their standard to either "take it or leave it". This doctrine has never changed and there is no indication that it will.

You don't represent that line of reason and neither do I.

I don't think so. My position was much different than yours. While I believed in God at that time I considered him to be at best uncaring and at worst a monster. My doubts did not come from history or the character of Joseph Smith. They came from occurences in my life and flaws I thought I had found deep within the doctrine itself that led me to doubt the goodness of God. It was a landmine for a while but I did resolve it.

I don't think Joseph Smith was a dirtbag. He never set himself up as some kind of shining example of morality. It seems clear from what I've read that he didn't really want the calling. He never doubted though that he was called. If Joseph broke the laws of God then that is between him and God. God has testified to me that the Book of Mormon and the doctrines Joseph taught are true. Whether Joseph lived them is irrelevant. I'm not being judged by what Joseph or Brigham or anyone else did. They were under the same law I am and I have screwed up. They had the same ability to screw up. My goal is to reconcile myself to God because I have grown to love him. I want to be in his presence again and learn from him the way I used to.

[_Scottie]

They were under the same law I am and I have screwed up. They had the same ability to screw up. My goal is to reconcile myself to God because I have grown to love him. I want to be in his presence again and learn from him the way I used to.

So you don't believe that a prophet of God should be under a higher law than you and me? I guess this is where I differ. Any 2 bit dirtbag could claim to be a prophet under your definition of the word, and I would have to accept that he MIGHT be.

I tend to take morality and honesty and simple little things like that into account when judging if someone might be a prophet of God or not. In my mind, a prophet should be all of those things. Much more than I am.

From what I can tell, Joseph Smith was much LESS honest and moral than I am.

[_Ren]

Well for me, I cannot wrap my mind around the notion that we are here due to a big bang, and that the beauty of the universe is just an accident.

It has intelligent design written all over its face

Really? Isn't an obvious answer to seeing beauty in the universe is that our brains are made that way? We see beauty in the things around us?

...do you find snowflakes beautiful? If so, you do believe they are created by an intelligent process? Or mindless forces?

as far as I can see, and when atheists try to explain to me why it isn't, I find them engaging in the same kind of cognitive processes exhibited by the apologists.

Hmmm - you must be talking to different apologists than I am :D

I guess they just have faith that the big bang (or whatever theory they fancy) ocurred.

The big bang is a 'scientific' truth.
So if you mean 'faith in the sense that I trust the methods of science to uncover the 'truth', then sure...
Other people can trust old books if they like. All power to 'em...

[_Scottie]

The big bang is a 'scientific' truth.

Since when?

[_The Nehor]

They were under the same law I am and I have screwed up. They had the same ability to screw up. My goal is to reconcile myself to God because I have grown to love him. I want to be in his presence again and learn from him the way I used to.

So you don't believe that a prophet of God should be under a higher law than you and me? I guess this is where I differ. Any 2 bit dirtbag could claim to be a prophet under your definition of the word, and I would have to accept that he MIGHT be.

I tend to take morality and honesty and simple little things like that into account when judging if someone might be a prophet of God or not. In my mind, a prophet should be all of those things. Much more than I am.

From what I can tell, Joseph Smith was much LESS honest and moral than I am.

No, I don't believe Prophets are under a higher law. Joseph taught that they are not. Don't have the quote handy but he did say that we can't expect to sit down with Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob unless we do what they did. Any 2 bit dirtbag can claim to be a Prophet but that's what the whole Holy Ghost thing is for. Joseph repeatedly taught that he was a man and had faults. I take him at his word. President Hinckley has said that he thinks he is an ordinary man with a special witness. I don't think this is some pseudomodesty. I think he believes it and that he's correct.

I'm not sure what the point is of comparing yourself to Joseph. The goal is to become Christ. Christ can judge his own servants. He doesn't need my help.

[_Inconceivable]

He never set himself up as some kind of shining example of morality. It seems clear from what I've read that he didn't really want the calling. He never doubted though that he was called. If Joseph broke the laws of God then that is between him and God. God has testified to me that the Book of Mormon and the doctrines Joseph taught are true. Whether Joseph lived them is irrelevant. I'm not being judged by what Joseph or Brigham or anyone else did. They were under the same law I am and I have screwed up. They had the same ability to screw up. My goal is to reconcile myself to God because I have grown to love him. I want to be in his presence again and learn from him the way I used to.

True? Mormon true or Webster's true?

The church teaches the doctrine of excommunication for those that do not practice morality. Joseph Smith set himself above God's law while claiming to be the revealer of the law of God. He was a poser.

So why was he chosen over all others? Was he the best of what was left? "Ye are the light of the world..." Joseph Smith wasn't set on a hill, he was placed on a mountain. His light did not exist or it failed.

It would be remiss if I overlooked your desire to "reconcile yourself to God". I understand what that means. It means that whether or not God exists, your desire is to live a peaceable and righteous life. And I don't think you're doing it for a reward, which I believe is good. It seems you do it because you know it brings you peace and balance.

[_Jersey Girl]

They were under the same law I am and I have screwed up. They had the same ability to screw up. My goal is to reconcile myself to God because I have grown to love him. I want to be in his presence again and learn from him the way I used to.

So you don't believe that a prophet of God should be under a higher law than you and me? I guess this is where I differ. Any 2 bit dirtbag could claim to be a prophet under your definition of the word, and I would have to accept that he MIGHT be.

I tend to take morality and honesty and simple little things like that into account when judging if someone might be a prophet of God or not. In my mind, a prophet should be all of those things. Much more than I am.

From what I can tell, Joseph Smith was much LESS honest and moral than I am.

No, I don't believe Prophets are under a higher law. Joseph taught that they are not. Don't have the quote handy but he did say that we can't expect to sit down with Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob unless we do what they did. Any 2 bit dirtbag can claim to be a Prophet but that's what the whole Holy Ghost thing is for. Joseph repeatedly taught that he was a man and had faults. I take him at his word. President Hinckley has said that he thinks he is an ordinary man with a special witness. I don't think this is some pseudomodesty. I think he believes it and that he's correct.

I'm not sure what the point is of comparing yourself to Joseph. The goal is to become Christ. Christ can judge his own servants. He doesn't need my help.

Do you think that it was to Joseph's advantage to teach that Prophets weren't under a higher law? A prophet of God not held to a higher law? Do you see how bass ackwards that is?

[_Jersey Girl]

Inconceivable

So why was he chosen over all others?

Because he had the charisma to act as front man for the religion created by the men who chose him.

[_harmony]

So, I'm trying to understand you here.

Are you saying that you have to be a Mormon in order for God to bless you, and now that you're not one, you are not worthy of the blessings? Or are you saying that because you have been questioning your faith, you now have a lack of it and God doesn't work without faith?

Since I've been questioning my faith I've refused to go along with things I know are false. The miracles I've witnessed are intermingled with these lies. I am really too angry to listen to God at this point due to His neglect in His assistance to make sense of this mess. All things considered, I'm just some dumb mortal with 40 or so years of fallible experience. I'm not too cynical to throw it all out.

I'm open to explanation, so long as it isn't along the line of Charity's predictable mind numbing mormonspeak.

Perhaps someday I will find peace (like I thought I occasionally felt). For now I'm vexed.

Okay, there's a lot in this post. I'll try to explain how I resolve all this.

1. I never doubt the miracles I have witnessed, never doubt the proof I have personally that God exists and cares about me. That's something that cannot be taken from me, by a claim of priesthood authority or any other means.

2. In the LDS church is much of what we call "doctrines of God" (service, charity, etc). It's mingled with a whole lotta bullshaloney from a whole lotta men who, for whatever reason, wanted a church with a whole lotta doctrines of men. An example of a doctrine of man: the supposed authority of the priesthood. That is a late-blooming concept that wasn't fully developed until the turn of the 20th century. It wasn't even important enough for Joseph to record the restoration of the Melch priesthood. It is, unfortunately for those who have staked their eternal salvation on it, a doctrine of men. God does not correct the doctrines of men. It's up to us to root them out and correct them. 1978 was a partial correction. There will be others, as soon as the leaders get a clue.

3. Negotiating the minefield that is "life" requires a focused, unshakeable personal relationship with God. Without that, life becomes what Inconcievable is living right now and worse. That personal relationship with deity does not require an intermediary and is actually hindered by those who call themselves prophets, bishops, pastors, or priests. Those entities are necessary for running a/the church; they are a roadblock to the individual living a life based on a personal relationship with God. Allow them to do their job with the church; guard your personal relationship with God closely and allow no interference.

4. Surviving in the LDS church, while holding onto one's own personal relationship with God, isn't easy. This next year, with the study all focused on Joseph Smith, the climate and culture is going to be hellish for me.

[_karl61]

Joseph Smith was constantly on the run because he was doing unto people that which he would not want done unto him.