The Handcarts Again..

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_Jason Bourne
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Post by _Jason Bourne »


Jason says we can't concern ourselves with adults that wrote in journals how pleased they were that they made the trek.


That is not what I said.

I think the problem with both of these statements is that there were children involved. It is appropriate to pity any child that was taken on such an arduous journey and quite possibly suffered extreme hardship, or death, because of their parents' religious fanaticism. It is appropriate to concern ourselves with any little person that does not have the ability to fiend for themselves and rely upon their parents to make informed, reasonable decisions as it regards to their care.

I have pity for these kids. Not so much the parents. If the parents were completely unaware of the treacherous journey ahead of them my sympathy extends to them as well. Yet, really it's hard to pity any parent that would place their child in such a position.


This from the 21st century of your chair in front of a PC. Look, life wast really hard back then. Many children died at young ages. Many US immigrants left Europe, not just LDS ones, in hopes of a better life. From your present day 160 years later who the heck are you to question what was good and not good for their children? Keep in minds more did this then so called religious fanatics, which in and of itself is once again a rather nasty slam when you really don't know that was up. I am sure glad our ancestors weren't afraid an cowardly to tackle the unkown like many of you seem to be.
_Dr. Shades
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Post by _Dr. Shades »

Jason Bourne wrote:Many US immigrants left Europe, not just LDS ones, in hopes of a better life. From your present day 160 years later who the heck are you to question what was good and not good for their children? Keep in minds more did this then so called religious fanatics, which in and of itself is once again a rather nasty slam when you really don't know that was up. I am sure glad our ancestors weren't afraid an cowardly to tackle the unkown like many of you seem to be.


But the majority of them left in early Spring, not (suicidally) in late Summer.
"Finally, for your rather strange idea that miracles are somehow linked to the amount of gay sexual gratification that is taking place would require that primitive Christianity was launched by gay sex, would it not?"

--Louis Midgley
_Infymus
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Post by _Infymus »

Jesus Christ just give it up already. Mormons like Nehor and Bourne and Charity will defend their cult even if all of the evidences were laid out before them. In their eyes the whole handcart b***s*** was a blessed event. Brigham and his cronies did no wrong and all was wonderful, peachy and keen. It was all wonderful and marvelous.

It gets old watching these clowns defend their cult. You Mormons here should just quote entire posts and respond "I know the Church is true." and get it over with, because in all reality, that's all you've got.

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_Moniker
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Post by _Moniker »

Jason Bourne wrote:

Jason says we can't concern ourselves with adults that wrote in journals how pleased they were that they made the trek.


That is not what I said.


Right, you said this:

In reality you really don't know your jaded view it what they felt, went through or thought. However, based on the records they left in their journals I think you really don;t know what you are talking about.

Most of them believed quite strongly and were happy with what they did not with standing their trials. Read their journals.


Sorry for the paraphrasing.

I think the problem with both of these statements is that there were children involved. It is appropriate to pity any child that was taken on such an arduous journey and quite possibly suffered extreme hardship, or death, because of their parents' religious fanaticism. It is appropriate to concern ourselves with any little person that does not have the ability to fiend for themselves and rely upon their parents to make informed, reasonable decisions as it regards to their care.

I have pity for these kids. Not so much the parents. If the parents were completely unaware of the treacherous journey ahead of them my sympathy extends to them as well. Yet, really it's hard to pity any parent that would place their child in such a position.


This from the 21st century of your chair in front of a PC. Look, life wast really hard back then. Many children died at young ages. Many US immigrants left Europe, not just LDS ones, in hopes of a better life. From your present day 160 years later who the heck are you to question what was good and not good for their children? Keep in minds more did this then so called religious fanatics, which in and of itself is once again a rather nasty slam when you really don't know that was up. I am sure glad our ancestors weren't afraid an cowardly to tackle the unkown like many of you seem to be.


Uh, no! Even during that time period people were HORRIFIED by what they witnessed! See my above quote. It is NO less appropriate to be horrified THEN as it is NOW! Children and their suffering is always seen as horrific! What lala land do you live in where you think people 100 years ago didn't care that kids were freezing to death?

I'm not slamming the Church! I am slamming anyone that has the mentality that they don't have to adequately prepare themselves for a treacherous journey because God will help them! Doesn't God tell us to help themselves? These adults were quite possibly misled -- what is even more disturbing is that these adults were responsible for the care and nurture of these children and they did not fulfill their role! I can make as many declarations on this as I do about anything else in history where there was horrific suffering! THIS is what history is Jason! We look to the past for lessons and recognize how to not repeat them! It is PERFECTLY reasonable to look to the past where there were situations of suffering and to be appalled by them!
_Moniker
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Post by _Moniker »

Oh, and Jason I suppose I am a coward.

When will you be pushing your handcart with your kids in it during a blizzard?
_The Nehor
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Post by _The Nehor »

Infymus wrote:Jesus Christ just give it up already. Mormons like Nehor and Bourne and Charity will defend their cult even if all of the evidences were laid out before them. In their eyes the whole handcart b***s*** was a blessed event. Brigham and his cronies did no wrong and all was wonderful, peachy and keen. It was all wonderful and marvelous.

It gets old watching these clowns defend their cult. You Mormons here should just quote entire posts and respond "I know the Church is true." and get it over with, because in all reality, that's all you've got.


Don't be jealous because I still believe be jealous because I'm better than you. ;)
"Surely he knows that DCP, The Nehor, Lamanite, and other key apologists..." -Scratch clarifying my status in apologetics
"I admit it; I'm a petty, petty man." -Some Schmo
_Jersey Girl
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Post by _Jersey Girl »

It's finally happened..Moniker has become interested not only in Mormonism, Mormon culture and now Mormon history and passionately expressing her opinions. See what happens to a never-Mo? Eventually it gets you.

Having said that, I might not be in the correct time frame here (this isn't a topic I've read much on) but isn't it true that LDS immigrants handed over the proceeds of the sale of their property to the church and that Smith poorly managed the funds? Would it be inaccurate to say that they were poor on account of Joseph Smith's inability to properly invest or manage money?

That's an inquiry folks, not an accusation so don't get riled up over it.
_Inconceivable
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Post by _Inconceivable »

Jason Bourne wrote:Sure

All lthe people that conquered the US forntier should have jus tstayed home and left is all unsettled

This really is one of the dumber threads I have seen. Were you really looking hard for another stick to beat the CHurch with? Shame on you for questioning the motives of these families that were brave enough to take on the unknown. Shame on you for disparaging their sacrafice and efforts in settlignthe Great Basin of the USA.


All or nothing isn't it, Jason?

No. We can learn from the trainwreck called Mormonism.

The handcarters thought they had pure enough motives. I primarily question the motives of those that knew they were ill prepared and yet sent them on anyway. Shame to them and their familes that perpetuate their sainthood.

In this case there are many untold/unrecognized lessons. Why? Mormons are distracted by ancestor worship among other things.

They were not prepared. It was a lesson unlearned. Thousands died on the trek from Nauvoo. Many lessons.

I blame the hierarchy of power. The sheep had no idea what they were getting themselves into. The leadership knew the country. I would say it was more like a lamb to the slaughter.

But they had an idea what they were doing. Those that lost everything had little to do but believe. That is all they were left with.


Shades,
not sure what your post has to do with the thread - wrong treck. It goes on to say that Brigham Young "after blistering the saints for "acting the nigger night after night", Young threatened to turn the company around and head back to Council Blluffs unless the pioneers repented their "wickedness.". I guess the book is a collectable now. Maybe I should ebay it.
_The Nehor
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Post by _The Nehor »

Moniker wrote:Oh, and Jason I suppose I am a coward.

When will you be pushing your handcart with your kids in it during a blizzard?


This winter. Unfortunately I have no children so will replace them with my autographed picture of William Shatner, my replica lightsaber, my X-Box 360, my first edition Wheel of Time books, my Lord of the Rings chess set, my PC, and my sound system remote to increase the feeling of danger.
"Surely he knows that DCP, The Nehor, Lamanite, and other key apologists..." -Scratch clarifying my status in apologetics
"I admit it; I'm a petty, petty man." -Some Schmo
_capt jack
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Post by _capt jack »

Jason Bourne wrote:


I do not think this is official meaning from LDS headquarters. Looks like it is something some stake or ward put together,


Handcarttreks.com, the site where the information was found, is registered to the following company, which is owned by the church:

Farm Management Company
139 East South Temple #110
Salt lake City, UT 84315
US

It's official, Jason, not some crap cobbled together by a ward or stake.
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