BYU is a sign of failure as a church

[_harmony]

Sorry to derail the thread a bit Harmony.

No problem, TD. It's all part of the surreality of the BYU experience. ;-)

I just wanted to see what would happen, were the unthinkable actually be discussed. You know what I'm talking about: disband the BYU conglomerate and send our shining youth to secular schools, like we're commanded to do. The leaders tried, back in the early 90's, when BYU was so overloaded with applications, and our leaders tried to get us to send our youth to state colleges and use the Institute system. Instead, now we have a further bloatedness surrounding the idea of BYU, with the expansion of Ricks to a 4 year BYU-Idaho complex. Stupid.

Quit spending our tithing dollars to support an institution that has long since outgrown it's usefulness and applicableness to real life. Disband it and put the tithing dollars to work like they're supposed to be, on the three-fold mission of the church.

And no, charity. Perfecting the Saints doesn't include providing expensive higher education for a limited number of youth. Higher education is a frill we can ill afford, when we're so broke we require the members to clean the buildings and the temples. That's just poor fiscal management.

[_Jason Bourne]

If we as members are truly living the gospel as taught in the LDS church, then we'd never send our children to BYU. Doing so is admitting we have failed as members and as parents.

Matt 5:16 tells us that we are to let our light shine before men, so that they will want to join us. We can't shine if we never go out into the world and if we refuse to send our children out. The missionary program is as close as we come to letting our light shine, and it's pretty pathetic in comparison to the numbers that are at the 3 BYU's.

If the church really wanted to take the gospel to the world as we are commanded, they'd sell the universities and offer parents no choice but to send our best and brightest, and all the rest too, to secular universities so their light would be noticed by the world. And they'd revamp the Institute program, so it wasn't insular but rather was an outreach program to nonmember students on college campuses.

I rather think the premise and connecting dots you attempt to make do not work at all.. here. One could easily as argue that the University is a light and that our young people walk out better prepared to be lights to the world wherever they may go.

[_Jason Bourne]

I beg to differ.

18-29 year old Mormons are not ready to be out in the real world (missions are not real world, by the way). Their light is not bright enough for the darkness.

Or maybe they have not become white enough yet..

Then we have failed as parents and as a church, because there is no reason for any LDS 18 year old to not know the gospel. From birth, they are taught the gospel, in Primary, in Mutual, in Seminary and at home. How could any LDS youth aged 18 years not know the gospel enough to outshine anyone at a secular university?

BYU is all about circling the wagons. We are not commanded to circle the wagons. We are commanded to let our light shine, and BYU plays a large part in circumventing that commandment.

No wonder the church is under condemnation.

Oh come now. If you really think about the reasons we send our what. 18 year olds off to BYU I think you will find this nonsensical and I think you are grasping. Face it Harmony. One reason is for our kids to be around enough other LDS to find a spouse they can take to the temple. Your kids have this nailed down at 18? Find a better topic to gripe about. This one makes you look petty.

[_Jason Bourne]

TD, the three-fold mission of the church does not include providing a place for young people to meet so they can get married (unless you think that qualifies as 'perfecting the Saints'?). And by some calculations, that's a bust anyway, since not all temple marriages of BYU student stay together.

If there was no BYU, then all the LDS youth would have to go to secular schools. The world would be exposed to the light of LDS youth, thus fulfilling at least one of the three-fold missions of the church, not to mention fulfilling the commandment to let our light so shine.

BYU is a result of ethnocentric selfish thinking. God doesn't work that way. If the leaders truly believed that God loves all his children, not just his LDS children, they'd do away with all church-owned universities, and send out those approx 100,000 faithful youth to spread the gospel via their shining example. Just imagine the immense good that could be done!

Every single one of my temple married children met their spouse at a school far from BYU, so don't tell me it's hard to find temple-worthy marriage-minded young adults at secular schools.

Charity, are you seriously saying BYU is all about PR? Good grief, what a waste of tithing.

And I'm serious. BYU is not inspired, it is directly against the commandment of Matt 5:16, and contributes to the church being under condemnation.

Wow. 10% or less of the Church's US youth attend Church schools. There are relatively few Church owned schools compared to the potential demand. Based on your theory the Church is succeeding at this. How you get to 100,000 is beyond me. 27,000 at provo, 15,000 at BYUI and 2500 at Hawaii.

[_harmony]

Oh come now. If you really think about the reasons we send our what. 18 year olds off to BYU I think you will find this nonsensical and I think you are grasping. Face it Harmony. One reason is for our kids to be around enough other LDS to find a spouse they can take to the temple. Your kids have this nailed down at 18? Find a better topic to gripe about. This one makes you look petty.

My disdain for BYU is legendary, Jason. I consider it a collosal waste of tithing dollars.

Why should tithing be spent to provide a place where LDS youth can meet other LDS youth and get married? Ever heard of Institute? All my temple-wedded children met their spouses there. None of them attended BYU. There is no reason to spend umpteen million tithing dollars to support what is essentially (according to everyone who has replied so far on this thread in support of BYU) a showcase for LDS athletes and a marriage mart.

[_charity]

That's definitely a double-edged sword. What kind of 'shining example' is it when some BYU football players are prosecuted for rape after liquoring up some girls at a party, or when one of them (an RM even) taunts the opposing fans after scoring a touchdown by flipping them off and shouting "f*** you!" a few times with a camera nearby? Ignoring that, what does even the best example really accomplish? Do you really think there are people who join the church because BYU has a successful athletic program or an awesome ballroom dance team?

It certainly is not a positive event when football players act as you mentioned. But over all, I think the example of BYU students in sports and activities gives a positive picture of BYU and by extension, the Church.

You don't understand the world of college athletics. There aren't any secular schools who give out scholarships to a guy who is going to be gone for a couple of years. They don't have unlimited scholarships and there are very definite rules about awarding them. A kid who goes off on a mission comes back to any secular school as a walk on. A little out of shape compared to the guys who have been playing for 2 years, and not in a good competitive situation. BYU is willing to work with them.

You're dead wrong on this. Several schools do it (all the Utah schools, ASU and a few others), and a few of them even talk of having instituted a "missionary policy" to lure top LDS recruits, wherein they hold scholarship spots open. Of course there are also some coaches who tell kids they're not welcome if they can't commit to four straight years. Also, haven't you heard certain football coaches complain about BYU having an unfair advantage because their linemen are older, bigger and stronger?

For harmony, truth dancer and you, I will retract the word "any." MOST. Do you suppose the reason that all the Utah schools and ASU (Arizonga State U for those who might not know) might have a different policy because of the ver supportive LDS in both Utah and Airzona?

[_karl61]

I think that if you are a full tithe payer then you should automatically get into a church school. I don't think the church wants that but they should because in the long run they will likely get ten percent of the persons income back. They should never give a non member a scholarship but not let a tithe payer in because he or she has less than a certain GPA.

[_Jason Bourne]

Were the intent behind establishing BYU to have been purely religious in nature--I.e. fulfilling the threefold mission of the Church, then what you suggest may make sense. However, given that the curriculum at BYU is, by design, overwhelmingly secular in nature, then what you suggest doesn't make sense. In other words, you are mistakingly, and ironically, attepting to confine BYU to a purely religious box.

Tithing is not supposed to be used for anything except the three-fold mission of the church. Therefore, no tithing money should be spent to support BYU.

Good grief, Wade. This is Mormons 101. You know this.

BYU meets the two of the three fold missions if that is your premise.

It does serve in perfecting members and yes even protecting the youth in what certainly can be a difficult period. Many go there then go on missions that may not have. Thus preaching the gospel is filled. Many meet their spouses, this perfecting the saints is filled even more. The school strengthens and prepares members in ways unique to the church. More perfecting the saints. BYU brings much of the world to it and shines to the world. Missionary work filled.

[_Jason Bourne]

My disdain for BYU is legendary, Jason.

Legendary to whom? Yourself? Members of your family and ward? Maybe your stake? Message boards? This hardly makes a legend.

I consider it a collosal waste of tithing dollars.

Obviously. But I can see about a hundred reasons why those who control tithing would thing it is a fantastic investment. Controlling the enviroment and further indoctrination of some of its choicest young people would be top of the list. And I do not mean that in a cynical sense,

Why should tithing be spent to provide a place where LDS youth can meet other LDS youth and get married?

Why not put them in a more controlled environment and push the chances and odd up. I do not know where you live Harm but where I live there are a scant few choices for the LDS dating scene. If LDS kids stay local and many do, their chances of a temple marriage plummet. In our stake our roles are full of 18-30 year old inactive to the tune of about 400. Many of these kids would have stayed active and married in the temple had they went to a church school.

Ever heard of Institute?

Sure harm. Move to where I live, in a stake that is 150 miles east to west and about 85 north to south. Come to the institute held at our stake center that gets 6-10 kids at it each week and we really try hard to get more to come. Go to the institute in the naighboring stake where there is a student ward of about 80 kids that covers five universities and see the 30 or so that come.

All my temple-wedded children met their spouses there.

Bully for you. I am happy for you. Others are not as fortunate.

None of them attended BYU.

So what?

There is no reason to spend umpteen million tithing dollars to support what is essentially (according to everyone who has replied so far on this thread in support of BYU) a showcase for LDS athletes and a marriage mart.

Horse pucky.

[_Sethbag]

BYU is all about circling the wagons. We are not commanded to circle the wagons. We are commanded to let our light shine, and BYU plays a large part in circumventing that commandment.

No wonder the church is under condemnation.

BYU is about Mormon youth staying Mormon throughout this period in their life, and finding and marrying Mormons. If they can get them graduated from college with a Mormon spouse, they stand a pretty good chance of keeping them in the church for the rest of their life. If they go out to secular universities, the likelihood of their finding good Mormon kids to marry and start procreating Mormon babies goes down, and the experience of a secular university outside of Utah isn't as likely, IMHO, to hold them bound to the church. This is a transitional period in peoples' lives, and the church wants to keep them good, faithful Mormons on the other side of this transition period.