A Personal Story of my Father's Temple Sealing

[_the road to hana]

My father passed away from cancer in 1998. He was a fantastic father, and I honestly believe that if I am one-tenth the person he was, I will be happy.

You're fortunate to have had such a wonderful father. Your love for both your father and your mother is clearly apparent here.

My question to you guys is this: How is it that my Mother, a complete saint (really... I am not just saying that), wasn't allowed in that temple, but my higher-than-a-kite uncle was? Why is it that my Uncle was deemed worthy, and my mother unworthy? Why does the church feel it has the right to judge people this way? Why is it that non-Mormon family members have to wait outside a temple while their loved one is getting married and people like my uncle (who has since received help for his problem and is doing much better) are allowed in?

Console yourself in the notion that the last shall be first, and that what goes around comes around. That your father's wishes weren't respected is no doubt hurtful.

[_harmony]

I wonder what the church would have done if Winter had objected, loudly and/or publically?

Seems to me like a daughter is a closer relative than a sister. I just wonder if you could have stopped it, had you known about it in time.

And me, being the BOW that I am, would have told them to hire a babysitter, that if my family wasn't going inside, we sure as hell weren't staying outside.

PS. I love the Manti temple. I think it is one of the prettiest temples, especially the wallpaper.

[_MishMagnet]

winterfootsteps, I hope you will be kind to yourself and not worry about this. I agree with Charity in that it doesn't really matter. There aren't that many options after this life. There's either an afterlife or there isn't. It's either an LDS afterlife or it isn't. Pope John Paul II has had his temple work done 4x already. Does it really matter? I submit that it does not.

My father was Bishop while growing up. A single woman in our ward died of cancer. She asked my father before she died to stay by her grave and make sure everything went alright. To not leave with everyone else. My father agreed. They lowered her into the ground and her casket was a little bit tilted. They asked my father - it that alright? Not wanting to make them redo it my father said yes. They started filling the grave. It's been like 20 years, winterfootsteps, and my dad feels bad about this. I say - I think she was more concerned they would desecrate her grave or whatever, not that she was somewhat tilted on one end. I mean, let's think about what happens to the body. A bit of tilting on way or the other isn't going to matter.

In the same vein, I know this is important to you but I do submit that in the large scope of things it's not worth causing yourself unhappiness over. Put yourself in your dad's position, lets say he's on the other side and has the perspective that we do not. Would you really hold this against your child? I wouldn't. I would just want my children to live happy lives and not trouble themselves with my issues any longer.

[_Wintersfootsteps]

This is where people make a mistake out of ignorance. Testimony or spiritual witness is not an emotion. Study the psychology of emotion. You won't find it listed.

Charity, how is it that you know about the spirit? A burning in the bosom, a warm, fuzzy feeling? Those are emotions. If you take emotionality out of the church, people would leave left and right. You are asked to read the Book of Mormon and PRAY for God to show you that it's true... how does God do that? Through emotions.

[_charity]

This is getting complicated as long conversations tend to do, so m reponses in red.

http://www.time.com/time/health/article/0,8599,1705585,00.html

Never heard of them. And you are saying that the UPDB bought the Church records? Where is your evidence for any kind of payment by any organization to the Church for genealogical records?

I didn't suggest that either of us have any. I suggested that neither of us knows whether the church is compensated for access to records by other organizations, including for genetic research.

So, even if there is no evidecne at all, you just throw a charge out there? Okay, are you beating your kids? I don't have any evidence, I'm just asking. Here I stand all wide eyed and innocent. I never said you were. I just asked.

What's your best guess regarding tithing revenues per year coming in from new converts? Take a stab at it.

I did some math. $26 per convert. I can send you my math, but it is a little convoluted.

Given that in 1999 annual revenues for the church were estimated at $5.9 billion, with all but $600 million of this being tithing from members, I'd charitably say that your estimates are low, even accounting for converts in depressed areas.

Don't quit your day job and apply for a job in accounting at the Church Office Building. I know LDS teenagers in middle class families who pay more tithing than that in a year. Somewhere in the COB there's an employee reading your figures and having a good chuckle.

I estimated 75% of the new converts are from less affluient areas,(Latin and South America, Africa and Asia) which estimates about an average of $6,700 income per year. I estimated that about 60% have incomes to pay tithing on. (wives, young people, old people, infirm wouldn't) Calculating 25% coming from more wealthy areas, with an estimated income of $15,000 a year (Europe, North America, excluding Mexico, Russia, Australia, NZ), again 60% having incomes. 272,00 converts in a year, but they don't all join in January. Take the total, and divide by 272,000 gives an average of $26 per year from the new converts.

Your wealthy teenage friends don't know how fortuante they are. Oh, yes, poor babies, they aren't wealthy. Well, they live in houses with wood floors, have 5 pairs of Air Jordans in their closests, and their own TV.

I think you mean that dropping the financial expectation should be expected to increase attendance at the temple, not prevent it. But those who lack the dedication to tithe, would hardly have the dedication to spend a few hours a week in a place that didn't have golf courses, etc. That's the point you missed.

Are you suggesting that church members wouldn't attend the temple unless they had to pay for it?

I don't know where you got that idea. I am suggesting that if you opened the temple to non-tithe payers you wouldn't find them doing much, except maybe an occasional sealing. Tithe paying and temple attendance both require faith.

I was not mocking temples, but your comparison of them to country clubs.

The point seems to be lost on you. It's not only a private club, but a private club with worldwide exchange privileges. Once you're a dues paying member (tithepayer, with current recommend) your recommend gets you into any one of over a hundred temples worldwide. Your daughter or son is going to get married, and is also worthy for a recommend? Where do you have the wedding? At your local temple. (No, I'm not suggesting that the reception is held there, but the after ceremony photos certainly are, and there is a certain amount of pre- and post- ceremony socialization that takes place for those family, friends and witnesses attending). Wards go there in groups for temple days and temple nights. There are locker rooms for changing. There are supportive facilities (clothing rental, in some cases food services, and so on). Non-members cannot participate (in this case, not even as guests). The grounds are impeccable. The interiors suit the membership.

I am missing the point. I do not equate worship with recreational activities. That someone can bring the temple down to such a crass level does strain my credulity.

Oh, and yes the Church has a history of building temples without expectation of tithing income. If you know the history of the Nauvoo Temple, you know that after the death of Joseph Smith, the Saints were in dire need, poor, being harrassed by mobs, and they knew they were being driven out. They still continued on to finish the temple before they were driven out.

If I know the history of it? A number of my ancestors sacrificed in the building of both the Nauvoo and Salt Lake Temples.

Then I am surprised that you belittle their sacrifice as you have done.

I have never belittled the sacrifice of any of my ancestors, be they Mormon or otherwise, not the Mormon pioneers who crossed the plains in hope of a better life, not the Protestant ancestors who crossed the seas in hope of a better life, not the Catholic ancestors who fought for their lives, not the Jewish ancestors who wandered in the desert, not the native and pagan ancestors who resisted conquest and oppression, and certainly not any of them who were disowned by family when they left one faith for another trusting the guidance of their own north star.

To suggest that I have belittled any of them, including my Nauvoo and Salt Lake ancestors, is without merit. I am as proud of that heritage and the sacrifice of those ancestors as I am the sacrifice all of them made collectively and individually to make possible my own existence today.

And yet you ascribe to the sacrifice they made as being for social purposes, to feel that they could go somewhere others couldn't, etc. That is demeaning to me.

[_Wintersfootsteps]

In a way, baptism by proxy seems a bit like identity theft.

Wow, I LOVE that!!! It's so true!

[_charity]

Winter, I am not denying your feelings in this matter. I understand that you feel your father's wishes should have been followed.

But I am still bewildered at what difference it could possibly make to you. If you do not believe in the ordinances, it won't matter if it is done or not. And if it makes your aunts, uncles feel better, what is the harm? I think I mentioned that after I am gone, if my Catholic friends believe they are helping me by lighting candles in my name, or having a memorial mass for me, I would see that as evidence of their love for me, not an insult.

[_Wintersfootsteps]

Winter, I am not denying your feelings in this matter. I understand that you feel your father's wishes should have been followed.

But I am still bewildered at what difference it could possibly make to you. If you do not believe in the ordinances, it won't matter if it is done or not. And if it makes your aunts, uncles feel better, what is the harm? I think I mentioned that after I am gone, if my Catholic friends believe they are helping me by lighting candles in my name, or having a memorial mass for me, I would see that as evidence of their love for me, not an insult.

You have no idea why it makes a difference to me? They didn't follow his wishes.

I understand your opinion because that is the opinion of the people that sealed him in the temple... trouble is, that is immoral and wrong. That is why it makes a difference.

Immoral. And. Wrong.

My aunts and uncles wouldn't have done this if they were not taught how important these ceremonies are... they care more about what the church taught them than actually listening to the wishes of their own brother. It's blind obedience.

Obviously you don't understand what many others here do.

Edited to add: If you asked your friends *not* to light a candle for you, they would probably respect your wishes because that is what good friends do.

[_the road to hana]

Never heard of them. And you are saying that the UPDB bought the Church records? Where is your evidence for any kind of payment by any organization to the Church for genealogical records?

I didn't suggest that either of us have any. I suggested that neither of us knows whether the church is compensated for access to records by other organizations, including for genetic research.

So, even if there is no evidecne at all, you just throw a charge out there? Okay, are you beating your kids? I don't have any evidence, I'm just asking. Here I stand all wide eyed and innocent. I never said you were. I just asked.

It's not necessarily a bad thing. Why would you equate it as such? I'm saying the simplest thing possible, which is that we don't know whether or not the church is compensated by anyone who has access to the records. Even if they are, that's not necessarily bad.

You seemed not to even be aware that they share the database for other purposes, including genetic research. Put your knee back; it doesn't need to jerk.

What's your best guess regarding tithing revenues per year coming in from new converts? Take a stab at it.

I did some math. $26 per convert. I can send you my math, but it is a little convoluted.

Given that in 1999 annual revenues for the church were estimated at $5.9 billion, with all but $600 million of this being tithing from members, I'd charitably say that your estimates are low, even accounting for converts in depressed areas.

Don't quit your day job and apply for a job in accounting at the Church Office Building. I know LDS teenagers in middle class families who pay more tithing than that in a year. Somewhere in the COB there's an employee reading your figures and having a good chuckle.

I estimated 75% of the new converts are from less affluient areas,(Latin and South America, Africa and Asia) which estimates about an average of $6,700 income per year. I estimated that about 60% have incomes to pay tithing on. (wives, young people, old people, infirm wouldn't) Calculating 25% coming from more wealthy areas, with an estimated income of $15,000 a year (Europe, North America, excluding Mexico, Russia, Australia, NZ), again 60% having incomes. 272,00 converts in a year, but they don't all join in January. Take the total, and divide by 272,000 gives an average of $26 per year from the new converts.

Again, don't quit your day job. Your figures are way off.

Your wealthy teenage friends don't know how fortuante they are. Oh, yes, poor babies, they aren't wealthy. Well, they live in houses with wood floors, have 5 pairs of Air Jordans in their closests, and their own TV.

They aren't friends. They're family. I'm not even going to dignify the rest of your comments with a response, because they most assuredly are not wealthy. They are very middle class American teenagers being taught principles of tithing by faithful parents.

I think you mean that dropping the financial expectation should be expected to increase attendance at the temple, not prevent it. But those who lack the dedication to tithe, would hardly have the dedication to spend a few hours a week in a place that didn't have golf courses, etc. That's the point you missed.

Are you suggesting that church members wouldn't attend the temple unless they had to pay for it?

I don't know where you got that idea. I am suggesting that if you opened the temple to non-tithe payers you wouldn't find them doing much, except maybe an occasional sealing. Tithe paying and temple attendance both require faith.

Two sides of the same coin.

I was not mocking temples, but your comparison of them to country clubs.

The point seems to be lost on you. It's not only a private club, but a private club with worldwide exchange privileges. Once you're a dues paying member (tithepayer, with current recommend) your recommend gets you into any one of over a hundred temples worldwide. Your daughter or son is going to get married, and is also worthy for a recommend? Where do you have the wedding? At your local temple. (No, I'm not suggesting that the reception is held there, but the after ceremony photos certainly are, and there is a certain amount of pre- and post- ceremony socialization that takes place for those family, friends and witnesses attending). Wards go there in groups for temple days and temple nights. There are locker rooms for changing. There are supportive facilities (clothing rental, in some cases food services, and so on). Non-members cannot participate (in this case, not even as guests). The grounds are impeccable. The interiors suit the membership.

I am missing the point. I do not equate worship with recreational activities. That someone can bring the temple down to such a crass level does strain my credulity.

A club does not need to have a recreational purpose in order to be a private club. And private clubs are not necessarily "crass." Is it a club? Yes. Is it private, or exclusive? Yes. It's a private club.

Oh, and yes the Church has a history of building temples without expectation of tithing income. If you know the history of the Nauvoo Temple, you know that after the death of Joseph Smith, the Saints were in dire need, poor, being harrassed by mobs, and they knew they were being driven out. They still continued on to finish the temple before they were driven out.

If I know the history of it? A number of my ancestors sacrificed in the building of both the Nauvoo and Salt Lake Temples.

Then I am surprised that you belittle their sacrifice as you have done.

I have never belittled the sacrifice of any of my ancestors, be they Mormon or otherwise, not the Mormon pioneers who crossed the plains in hope of a better life, not the Protestant ancestors who crossed the seas in hope of a better life, not the Catholic ancestors who fought for their lives, not the Jewish ancestors who wandered in the desert, not the native and pagan ancestors who resisted conquest and oppression, and certainly not any of them who were disowned by family when they left one faith for another trusting the guidance of their own north star.

To suggest that I have belittled any of them, including my Nauvoo and Salt Lake ancestors, is without merit. I am as proud of that heritage and the sacrifice of those ancestors as I am the sacrifice all of them made collectively and individually to make possible my own existence today.

And yet you ascribe to the sacrifice they made as being for social purposes, to feel that they could go somewhere others couldn't, etc. That is demeaning to me.

I made no such suggestion.

[_the road to hana]

Winter, I am not denying your feelings in this matter. I understand that you feel your father's wishes should have been followed.

But I am still bewildered at what difference it could possibly make to you. If you do not believe in the ordinances, it won't matter if it is done or not. And if it makes your aunts, uncles feel better, what is the harm? I think I mentioned that after I am gone, if my Catholic friends believe they are helping me by lighting candles in my name, or having a memorial mass for me, I would see that as evidence of their love for me, not an insult.

But if they baptized one of your children?