Dynasitc Marriages-Doctrinal Question

[_ludwigm]

If one doesn't like the Tanners, it is available on the BYU site.

It is indeed in History of the Church, vol. 6, ch. 19, under the heading "Address of the Prophet—His Testimony Against the Dissenters at Nauvoo." (I love BYU's access to GospeLink . . .)

Here's how to get there: go to lib.BYU.edu and select "Religion - LDS" from the "Find Databases by Subject" drop-down menu. Click "Go." GospeLink.com will come up at the top of the list. Click on it and enter your Route Y ID and password when prompted. You can then search the entire collection of GospeLink, or browse anything you wish.

Unfortunately, I have no access ...

[_Jason Bourne]

Hey Jason,

My understanding is that Joseph Smith thought Christ would come in his glory, the second coming where every knee shall bow and tongue confess, and Joseph Smith would be the King, under the reign of Jesus.

Did I misunderstand?

I think he thought it was a possibility that he would be the prophet alive when Jesus came again. I do not think he believed this was shoe in.

In terms of Joseph Smith thinking he was "all that and then some" (smile)...

For starters:

Come on! ye prosecutors! ye false swearers! All hell, boil over! Ye burning mountains, roll down your lava! for I will come out on the top at last. I have more to boast of than ever any man had. I am the only man that has ever been able to keep a whole church together since the days of Adam. A large majority of the whole have stood by me. Neither Paul, John, Peter, nor Jesus ever did it. I boast that no man ever did such a work as I. The followers of Jesus ran away from Him; but the Latter-day Saints never ran away from me yet. You know my daily walk and conversation. I am in the bosom of a virtuous and good people. How I do love to hear the wolves howl! When they can get rid of me, the devil will also go.

http://www.utlm.org/onlineresources/ser ... denial.htm

It is unfortunate that you use this quote as a club to beat the drum on this topic. First where did he say he was second to Jesus as you noted above? Second, he did not write this. Scribed did, most likely long after he said it. Third even if it is accurate do you understand the circumstances that created the situation where he uttered it as FLAMBOYANT rhetoric?

I wonder how much of what Joseph Smith said or wrote you have read from direct sources rather than sourced that are hostile to the Church such as the Tanners web site where you plucked this up.

[_ludwigm]

It is unfortunate that you use this quote as a club to beat the drum on this topic. First where did he say he was second to Jesus as you noted above? Second, he did not write this. Scribed did, most likely long after he said it. Third even if it is accurate do you understand the circumstances that created the situation where he uttered it as FLAMBOYANT rhetoric?

I wonder how much of what Joseph Smith said or wrote you have read from direct sources rather than sourced that are hostile to the Church such as the Tanners web site where you plucked this up.

Joseph Smith has written near nothing. All (near all) of his diary, the HoC, everything was written by scribes. When something is negative, apologists are shouting "the scribes did it, the scribes did it after his death". Then, please abandon everything written by scribes!. Scribes are unreliable, by default.

As for "hostile" sources, please read my previous comment two hours before Your one then please visit lib.BYU.edu !

[hehe mode on]Hallelujah! I am a revelator! I predicted people will appear here who doesn't like the Tanners![hehe mode off]

[_truth dancer]

Hey Jason,

As Ludwigm has stated, it seems like most of what we have comes from scribes. I have read quite a bit and as I said, my impression is that Joseph Smith did indeed feel he was one of the chosen of the chosen, second to Jesus Christ, King of Isral on Earth, whatever.

Aside from what Joseph Smith actually wrote down, it seems clear to me he had serious issues with grandiosity. I believe he had a delusion disorder but of course can't prove this and it is either here nor there.

The reality is, anyone who believe they are visited personally by God the father, who believes God chose them among all the 100,000,000,000 spirits, to restore the one and only true church, who believes they can channel Jesus Christ, who believes and crowns himself "King of Israel on Earth" who believe they are chosen of God to personally get the world ready for the return of Jesus, who believes God has given him dozens of girls and women to be his, who believes he has a direct line to bring forth ultimate truth on the earth, etc. etc. etc. etc. etc. etc., has grandiosity tendencies, in my opinion.

Anyone else who made these claims would be in a mental institution and there would be agreement that he had some serious issues and an inflated ego. Joseph Smith somehow gets a free pass. :-(

~dancer~

[_charity]

The reality is, anyone who believe they are visited personally by God the father, who believes God chose them among all the 100,000,000,000 spirits, to restore the one and only true church, who believes they can channel Jesus Christ, who believes and crowns himself "King of Israel on Earth" who believe they are chosen of God to personally get the world ready for the return of Jesus, who believes God has given him dozens of girls and women to be his, who believes he has a direct line to bring forth ultimate truth on the earth, etc. etc. etc. etc. etc. etc., has grandiosity tendencies, in my opinion.

Anyone else who made these claims would be in a mental institution and there would be agreement that he had some serious issues and an inflated ego. Joseph Smith somehow gets a free pass. :-(

~dancer~

The reality is that IF a person really has been visited personally by God, the father, was really chosen among all the spirits to restore the one and only true Church, etc. he isn't being grandiose at all.

Your claims of grandiosity fall on the fact that Joseph Smith, indeed do all the things you think he didn't. He's right. You are wrong. But I am sure he will forgive you.

[_Jason Bourne]

Hey Jason,

As Ludwigm has stated, it seems like most of what we have comes from scribes. I have read quite a bit and as I said, my impression is that Joseph Smith did indeed feel he was one of the chosen of the chosen, second to Jesus Christ, King of Isral on Earth, whatever.

Aside from what Joseph Smith actually wrote down, it seems clear to me he had serious issues with grandiosity. I believe he had a delusion disorder but of course can't prove this and it is either here nor there.

The reality is, anyone who believe they are visited personally by God the father, who believes God chose them among all the 100,000,000,000 spirits, to restore the one and only true church, who believes they can channel Jesus Christ, who believes and crowns himself "King of Israel on Earth" who believe they are chosen of God to personally get the world ready for the return of Jesus, who believes God has given him dozens of girls and women to be his, who believes he has a direct line to bring forth ultimate truth on the earth, etc. etc. etc. etc. etc. etc., has grandiosity tendencies, in my opinion.

Anyone else who made these claims would be in a mental institution and there would be agreement that he had some serious issues and an inflated ego. Joseph Smith somehow gets a free pass. :-(

~dancer~

Well toss in Moses, Jeremiah, Elijah, Muhammed, Joan of Arc, Buddha, John the Baptist and well, Jesus who said he was God's son.

[_truth dancer]

Hey Jason,

Well toss in Moses, Jeremiah, Elijah, Muhammad, Joan of Arc, Buddha, John the Baptist and well, Jesus who said he was God's son.

Well, if we are talking about all the folks who claim God talks to them, who believe they are one of the special ones who has a special job for humankind, we could come up with a very long list of folks, most of whom are in need of, or receiving pharmacological help.

I know a few personally! :-)

And if we look at myths, ancient stories, and the folks who have for thousands of years ended up killed or in an institution, the list gets longer.

I honestly do not see a difference between the claims and behaviors of Joseph Smith and every other guy who makes these claims and engages in various questionable (trying to be polite), acts while blaming God for his behavior.

Ohhh, also, the way I read the New Testament and Jesus' teachings is that we are ALL God's children... I do not get the impression that Jesus believed in the same God as is taught by the LDS church. Not at all.

:-)

~dancer~

[_truth dancer]

The reality is that IF a person really has been visited personally by God, the father, was really chosen among all the spirits to restore the one and only true Church, etc. he isn't being grandiose at all.

That's what the follows of all religious and cult leaders say about their leader. :-)

Your claims of grandiosity fall on the fact that Joseph Smith, indeed do all the things you think he didn't. He's right. You are wrong. But I am sure he will forgive you.

I care about Joseph Smith's opinions and forgiveness about as much as I care about Attila the Hun, Jim Jones, or L. Ron Hubbard.

IF there is some sort of God in heaven I feel quite sure God would honor those who cared about others, who spoke out against cruel and hurtful behavior, who didn't give a free pass to those who used God as an excuse to engage in despicable behavior.

Of course I could be wrong... maybe God is the tyrant some believe him to be.

~dancer~

[_charity]

I care about Joseph Smith's opinions and forgiveness about as much as I care about Attila the Hun, Jim Jones, or L. Ron Hubbard.

We all know you hate Joseph Smith. Which is not a very Christian attitude, but hey, everyone is entitled to his/her own opinion, even if they are are wrong.

IF there is some sort of God in heaven I feel quite sure God would honor those who cared about others, who spoke out against cruel and hurtful behavior, who didn't give a free pass to those who used God as an excuse to engage in despicable behavior.

Of course I could be wrong... maybe God is the tyrant some believe him to be.

~dancer~

I am sure you are quite right that God will give credit to all those who care about others, who speak out against cruel and hurtful behavior, and who didn't give a free pass to those who used God as an excuse to engage in despicable beahvior.

He will also hold those accountable for the sin of dishonoring His chosen servants, for defaming and blaspheming His Son, and for influencing His more vulnerable children out of the faith He wants them to have.

I'm sure God will forgive you for those sins, but you have to repent first. Just a word to the wise.

[_Yoda]

Charity,

To make it clear, as the originator of this thread, I do not hate Joseph Smith. I have been a member of the Church for over 40 years. My point in creating this thread was to better understand some of the discrepancies that are apparent in Mormon history. I have had previous private conversations with you, so you are aware that the subject of plural marriage is something that I have struggled with for some time. This thread is a sincere attempt to gain some answers and insight.

Apparently, Bob Crockett seems to think that all I am trying to do is run some sort of smear campaign, but I assure you, that is not the case.

Since it appears that Bob is going to ignore my question, I'll pose the same question to you. What are your thoughts on the series of events surrounding Oliver Cowdrey's excommunication? Do the sources that Jason and I have posted check out in comparison to what you are familiar with, or is there another source which I could refer to?

Bob, if you are still reading this thread, I hope that you reconsider, and also give your insight.

Thanks.

Elizabeth