What is Mormonism's Ultimate Punishment?

[_Mister Scratch]

There have been quite a few postings pertaining to this subject over on the aptly named MADboard as of late, and it makes me wonder: What, at heart, is the "punishment" belying Mormonism? That is, what is the grand, horrible fate that will befall you if you "go astray"? This seems to me one of the very peculiar and difficult-to-nail down facets of Church doctrine, and yet, in its own way, it seems every bit as essential as the doctrine of eternal progression. So, what is the punishment? Is there a hierarchy? Or is there no real "punishment?" As I see it, there seem to be several different forms of post-mortal "hell":

---Spirit Prison
---Outer Darkness (where the Sons of Perdition are sent)
---The Telestial Kingdom (for murderers and other sinners)

So, is it fair to say that there is indeed something resembling "hell" within Mormonism? And if so, what sins are grievous enough to earn you a ticket there?

I thought you were a Mormon Scratch? In that case, I would expect you to know the answer to this question, as its rudimentary doctrine for which there is no ambiguity or imprecision in our scriptures or the writings of the General Authorities.

Or is my first assumption mistaken?

Certainly, I have my own ideas about how to answer the question. I was merely curious what others thought. Apparently, as per Nehor, there seems to be some confusion (or "waffling") on the issue of whether or not apostasy merits Outer Darkness. The fact that no one seems willing to provide a straight, scripturally/doctrinally-supported answer (aside from Jason's D&C citation) seems to suggest that there is, indeed, some "confusion"---perhaps not in the scriptures themselves, but amongst the rank-and-file.

My .02 is that Nehor's interpretation is the stereotypically watered down TBM reading of that D&C passage. TBMs are terrified at the thought that non-LDS---and in particular prospective converts---might learn about this "roach motel" aspect of Mormonism: i.e., once you're in, you either have to stay in, or suffer the absolutely worst version of hell imagninable. No doubt the Church's PR folks are extremely worried that non-LDS might find out that they will all be headed to suffer the supreme torments of temporary hell.

The bottom line is that "hell" is another part of LDS theology that most TBMs are utterly embarrassed about. This is perhaps the apotheosis of the "meat" that is supposed to be kept away from investigators and non-Mormons.

[_Coggins7]

Certainly, I have my own ideas about how to answer the question. I was merely curious what others thought. Apparently, as per Nehor, there seems to be some confusion (or "waffling") on the issue of whether or not apostasy merits Outer Darkness.

There's no confusion at all. All you have to do is understand LDS doctrine. Anyone who has gone to Church and payed attention to the Gospel Doctrine, Priesthood, and Relief Society lessons in any given year could answer your question (or who has a good working knowledge of the scriptures). Apostasy, in and of itself, does not involve a resurrection of no glory. Only when one's knowledge has been so clear, deep, or great enough, that apostasy involves one in a brazen denial of such intimate direct knowledge and experience, can the sin against the Holy Ghost be committed. "Falling away" from the Church, for most, will involve no such compromises (which is not to say it will not involve a compromise with one's testimony. But testimonies exist at various levels of strength, immediacy, and depth, and only at a certain level does the sin against the Holy Ghost become a live question).

My .02 is that Nehor's interpretation is the stereotypically watered down TBM reading of that D&C passage. TBMs are terrified at the thought that non-LDS---and in particular prospective converts---might learn about this "roach motel" aspect of Mormonism: I.e., once you're in, you either have to stay in, or suffer the absolutely worst version of hell imagninable. No doubt the Church's PR folks are extremely worried that non-LDS might find out that they will all be headed to suffer the supreme torments of temporary hell.

You're making up doctrines and doctrinal problems as you go along Scratch. While that's your typical modus operandi here, since the doctrine has been so well elucidated in the scriptures and by the Brethren, little more need be said.

The bottom line is that "hell" is another part of LDS theology that most TBMs are utterly embarrassed about. This is perhaps the apotheosis of the "meat" that is supposed to be kept away from investigators and non-Mormons.

Mr. Bo Jangles...Dance. "Hell", or "Outer Darkness", is for the wicked, not for people who simply leave the Church, for whatever reason. Many who have left the Church will no doubt find themselves resident in that benighted world for some time. Others will not. Those who must experience the purging of this sphere of existence before their redemption are clearly delineated in the D&C. The salient feature, as you will notice, is not whether or not they left the Church, or even whether or not they ever joined it. The salient feature is that they refused to receive the testimony of Christ and lived Telestial lives; lives of carnality and sensuality.

[_Jersey Girl]

Loran

The salient feature is that they refused to receive the testimony of Christ and lived Telestial lives; lives of carnality and sensuality.

In which life time?

[_unwell3398]

"Opinions taught in an authoritative tone have changed. Doctrinal explanations taught in an authoritative tone have changed. True doctrines and practices, taught through the authority of the Holy Ghost, have also been changed or modified (Jesus Christ himself presided over the end of the ritual life of Israel and the Law of Moses, subsumed as they were in the New and Everlasting Covenant)."

So what is to say that was was being done before was wrong...or right? Or what is now being done today is wrong or right? People died for what they believed in back in the day, yet today many doctrines and teachings have been altered or discarded. Doctrines, even according to Joseph Smith, were considered competely true and everlasting. So when they get changed....red flags go up.

Many who have asked for clarification on doctrines have been shut down, or thought to be troublemakers. I was, for one, in my ward and stake when I was in Young Womens. I was told that if I didn't simply accept the words of the leaders, on a local and top level, that I would be shunned and disciplined. I wasn't even questioning at the time; I simply trying to figure out what was meant especially when it did not coincide with something else I had been taught.

[_The Nehor]

There have been quite a few postings pertaining to this subject over on the aptly named MADboard as of late, and it makes me wonder: What, at heart, is the "punishment" belying Mormonism? That is, what is the grand, horrible fate that will befall you if you "go astray"? This seems to me one of the very peculiar and difficult-to-nail down facets of Church doctrine, and yet, in its own way, it seems every bit as essential as the doctrine of eternal progression. So, what is the punishment? Is there a hierarchy? Or is there no real "punishment?" As I see it, there seem to be several different forms of post-mortal "hell":

---Spirit Prison
---Outer Darkness (where the Sons of Perdition are sent)
---The Telestial Kingdom (for murderers and other sinners)

So, is it fair to say that there is indeed something resembling "hell" within Mormonism? And if so, what sins are grievous enough to earn you a ticket there?

I thought you were a Mormon Scratch? In that case, I would expect you to know the answer to this question, as its rudimentary doctrine for which there is no ambiguity or imprecision in our scriptures or the writings of the General Authorities.

Or is my first assumption mistaken?

Certainly, I have my own ideas about how to answer the question. I was merely curious what others thought. Apparently, as per Nehor, there seems to be some confusion (or "waffling") on the issue of whether or not apostasy merits Outer Darkness. The fact that no one seems willing to provide a straight, scripturally/doctrinally-supported answer (aside from Jason's D&C citation) seems to suggest that there is, indeed, some "confusion"---perhaps not in the scriptures themselves, but amongst the rank-and-file.

My .02 is that Nehor's interpretation is the stereotypically watered down TBM reading of that D&C passage. TBMs are terrified at the thought that non-LDS---and in particular prospective converts---might learn about this "roach motel" aspect of Mormonism: I.e., once you're in, you either have to stay in, or suffer the absolutely worst version of hell imagninable. No doubt the Church's PR folks are extremely worried that non-LDS might find out that they will all be headed to suffer the supreme torments of temporary hell.

The bottom line is that "hell" is another part of LDS theology that most TBMs are utterly embarrassed about. This is perhaps the apotheosis of the "meat" that is supposed to be kept away from investigators and non-Mormons.

Are you an idiot? Okay, let's try this again and I'll try to use small words.

Apostates do not all get sentenced to eternal Outer Darkness. Those Apostates who KNOW the gospel is true and still defy it get that punishment. The rest do not.

Now, do you get it? Has everyone here gotten dumber since I left?

[_Jersey Girl]

Nehor

Those Apostates who KNOW the gospel is true and still defy it get that punishment. The rest do not.

In which life time?

[_unwell3398]

There have been quite a few postings pertaining to this subject over on the aptly named MADboard as of late, and it makes me wonder: What, at heart, is the "punishment" belying Mormonism? That is, what is the grand, horrible fate that will befall you if you "go astray"? This seems to me one of the very peculiar and difficult-to-nail down facets of Church doctrine, and yet, in its own way, it seems every bit as essential as the doctrine of eternal progression. So, what is the punishment? Is there a hierarchy? Or is there no real "punishment?" As I see it, there seem to be several different forms of post-mortal "hell":

---Spirit Prison
---Outer Darkness (where the Sons of Perdition are sent)
---The Telestial Kingdom (for murderers and other sinners)

So, is it fair to say that there is indeed something resembling "hell" within Mormonism? And if so, what sins are grievous enough to earn you a ticket there?

I thought you were a Mormon Scratch? In that case, I would expect you to know the answer to this question, as its rudimentary doctrine for which there is no ambiguity or imprecision in our scriptures or the writings of the General Authorities.

Or is my first assumption mistaken?

Certainly, I have my own ideas about how to answer the question. I was merely curious what others thought. Apparently, as per Nehor, there seems to be some confusion (or "waffling") on the issue of whether or not apostasy merits Outer Darkness. The fact that no one seems willing to provide a straight, scripturally/doctrinally-supported answer (aside from Jason's D&C citation) seems to suggest that there is, indeed, some "confusion"---perhaps not in the scriptures themselves, but amongst the rank-and-file.

My .02 is that Nehor's interpretation is the stereotypically watered down TBM reading of that D&C passage. TBMs are terrified at the thought that non-LDS---and in particular prospective converts---might learn about this "roach motel" aspect of Mormonism: I.e., once you're in, you either have to stay in, or suffer the absolutely worst version of hell imagninable. No doubt the Church's PR folks are extremely worried that non-LDS might find out that they will all be headed to suffer the supreme torments of temporary hell.

The bottom line is that "hell" is another part of LDS theology that most TBMs are utterly embarrassed about. This is perhaps the apotheosis of the "meat" that is supposed to be kept away from investigators and non-Mormons.

Are you an idiot? Okay, let's try this again and I'll try to use small words.

Apostates do not all get sentenced to eternal Outer Darkness. Those Apostates who KNOW the gospel is true and still defy it get that punishment. The rest do not.

Now, do you get it? Has everyone here gotten dumber since I left?

You, Nehor, are missing the point. The original topic was asking what everyone thinks or believes. Everyone has not gotten "dumber" as you oh so eloquently accused, but we have ALL been taught different things over our lives on this matter. Your opinion is something different than what my father read to me in a book written by...oh, who was it...I THINK it was David O. McKay. Anyway, that wasn't the point. There is NO official statement on who goes to hell or not, and what happens to apostates. I've heard numerous opinions, but no clarification on the doctrine.

[_The Nehor]

Nehor

Those Apostates who KNOW the gospel is true and still defy it get that punishment. The rest do not.

In which life time?

All of them.

[_Jersey Girl]

Nehor

Those Apostates who KNOW the gospel is true and still defy it get that punishment. The rest do not.

In which life time?

All of them.

At what point then, is one cast into Outer Darkness or Hell?

[_The Nehor]

You, Nehor, are missing the point. The original topic was asking what everyone thinks or believes. Everyone has not gotten "dumber" as you oh so eloquently accused, but we have ALL been taught different things over our lives on this matter. Your opinion is something different than what my father read to me in a book written by...oh, who was it...I THINK it was David O. McKay. Anyway, that wasn't the point. There is NO official statement on who goes to hell or not, and what happens to apostates. I've heard numerous opinions, but no clarification on the doctrine.

So you're confused because someone read to you something in a book that you can't remember the name of that was possibly written by a President of the Church but you're not sure? See, this is the kind of uncertainty that research can get rid of.

There ARE several official statements on who goes to hell or not. We call them ''the Scriptures". We read them and they tell us stuff. If you're interested in some doctrinal point, you research it in the Scriptures and you get the answers. It's a fascinating process. Works in other fields too with their books.

The other option of course is to stay ignorant and then whine about how you don't know anything about it. Scratch, for someone who claims to be a member of the Church and know something about it you know almost nothing of it's scriptural canon if you didn't jump to several sections of the D&C when you first wanted to know. Either that or you do know and are trying to confuse the issue. Heck, for all I know you could be eligible for Outer Darkness. So Scratch, do you know it's true and hate it anyways?