Not a problem. As one MADB poster wryly remarked, my female avatars lure feminists into thinking I am sympathetic to their pov. I'd like to foster that image.....
;)
I know better. You're a misogynist through and through!
;)
LOL
A loaf of bread, a jug of wine, and thou.....
I am one of those perfect people who is antifeminist without being the least bit misogynistic. Such a balance is just one of the properties of a TBM.
Not a problem. As one MADB poster wryly remarked, my female avatars lure feminists into thinking I am sympathetic to their pov. I'd like to foster that image.....
;)
I know better. You're a misogynist through and through!
;)
LOL
A loaf of bread, a jug of wine, and thou.....
I am one of those perfect people who is antifeminist without being the least bit misogynistic. Such a balance is just one of the properties of a TBM.
I am one of those perfect people who is antifeminist without being the least bit misogynistic. Such a balance is just one of the properties of a TBM.
And this is just one of the peculiar properties that allow TBMs their marvelous resistance to PC and the clever arguments of exmo and anti-Mormon "experts" in various subject areas that jump the inferential tracks in an attempt to go where the evidence, given its own druthers, would fear to tread.
Unusual properties indeed.
The face of sin today often wears the mask of tolerance.
I surmise that the high rates of depression are caused by unrealistic expectations of perfectionism, tremendous demands on time and finances, and feelings of guilt and low self-esteem when unable to do the humanly impossible.
As a Mormon woman I am expected to be perfect - have a perfect home, children, marriage, fulfill all my callings going the extra mile, hold family prayers twice a day plus meals, plan and hold family home evening (and it must be creative, interesting, with lots of games and visual aids, and my kids must joyuously attend without any complaint), I am supposed to have tons of kids without gaining any weight, fix delicious food without gaining any weight, be loving and forgiving all the time, be wealthy (since God blesses us when we pay our tithing, or when we are the truly righteous). I am supposed to attend meetings during the week, make sure all my children get their Eagle Scout, make sure they all have perfect grades, go on a date once a week with my spouse, yet I should be with my children all the time. I shouldn't work outside the home, but since I do I am made to feel guilty and am still expected to meet the same standards of perfections as a woman who stays home all day. I need to attend the temple, do my geneaology, visit the sick, serve others in the ward, bring in dinners to those who are ill, serve in my community, dress nicely but not immodestly, exercise, help my children with their homework, have plenty of energy at the end of the day to have sex with my husband, look beautiful every day (and no aging -- please!). I must sing, play the piano, play the violin, afford lessons for my children to do these things, attend all the soccer and basketball games for each of my children, perhaps volunteer to help with them, bring treats, join the PTA, volunteer in my child's classroom.... and on, and on, and on. I need to do my visiting teaching every month and bring a small gift or handout. I must scrapbook every moment of each child's life. I must pay an honest tithe on the gross, even if I can't afford it, plus the fast offerings, and the missionary fund, and the perpetual education fund, etc. I need to quilt, cross-stitch, sew clothes, and make crafts. I must tole-paint and have the most beautiful house on the block. My yard and garden must be an example to my non-member neighbors.
And when I being, merely human, cannot possibly do all of this I feel GUILTY! EVeryweek when I go to church and hear the lessons in Sunday School and Relief Sociey it is further reinforced to me that I am a lazy schmuck because I am not perfect and cannot do what all the other ladies are surely doing. I am worthless because I did not complete my visiting teaching this month and I feel so guilty! I need to lengthen my stride and just DO IT! I need to try harder and do better next week.
And after years and years of this weekly guilt-tripping and feeling of inadequacy I feel so depressed that finally -- I give up!
Give me PROZAC!!!!!!
"Brigham said the day would come when thousands would be made Eunuchs in order for them to be saved in the kingdom of God." (Wilford Woodruff's Diary, June 2, 1857, Vol. 5, pages 54-55)
By whom? This isn't church doctrine, counsel, or an accepted attitude among its members. The First Presidency, I recall, attacked this problem in the seventies, as some members then, especially woman, were having problems with it. If anyone is expecting you to be "perfect" in some all encompassing senses, you should tell them to blow off and learn the Gospel.
Perfectionism, it should be noted, is a problem inherent in our highly competitive, materialist culture in a general sense, so its no surprise it makes its appearance among the Saints, who are embedded within that culture. The Church, however, does not support any such attitudes among its members.
Nor do all members, and probably a majority, struggle under such illusions.
The face of sin today often wears the mask of tolerance.
As a Mormon woman I am expected to be perfect - have a perfect home, children, marriage, fulfill all my callings going the extra mile, hold family prayers twice a day plus meals, plan and hold family home evening (and it must be creative, interesting, with lots of games and visual aids, and my kids must joyuously attend without any complaint), I am supposed to have tons of kids without gaining any weight, fix delicious food without gaining any weight, be loving and forgiving all the time, be wealthy (since God blesses us when we pay our tithing, or when we are the truly righteous). I am supposed to attend meetings during the week, make sure all my children get their Eagle Scout, make sure they all have perfect grades, go on a date once a week with my spouse, yet I should be with my children all the time. I shouldn't work outside the home, but since I do I am made to feel guilty and am still expected to meet the same standards of perfections as a woman who stays home all day. I need to attend the temple, do my geneaology, visit the sick, serve others in the ward, bring in dinners to those who are ill, serve in my community, dress nicely but not immodestly, exercise, help my children with their homework, have plenty of energy at the end of the day to have sex with my husband, look beautiful every day (and no aging -- please!). I must sing, play the piano, play the violin, afford lessons for my children to do these things, attend all the soccer and basketball games for each of my children, perhaps volunteer to help with them, bring treats, join the PTA, volunteer in my child's classroom.... and on, and on, and on. I need to do my visiting teaching every month and bring a small gift or handout. I must scrapbook every moment of each child's life. I must pay an honest tithe on the gross, even if I can't afford it, plus the fast offerings, and the missionary fund, and the perpetual education fund, etc. I need to quilt, cross-stitch, sew clothes, and make crafts. I must...
As I looked over this again, I realized that it was nothing but the spleen venting of an adolescent mentality looking for a shoulder to cry on because something's wrong inside and the Church is an easy scapegoat that allows displacement of anger and frustration onto an external and relives one of the need to do serious work on one's own life.
Sorry to have misunderstood.
About 90% of the above is raw, unvarnished nonsense, but don't let that stop a good Church bashing session.
The face of sin today often wears the mask of tolerance.
As a Mormon woman I am expected to be perfect - have a perfect home, children, marriage, fulfill all my callings going the extra mile, hold family prayers twice a day plus meals, plan and hold family home evening (and it must be creative, interesting, with lots of games and visual aids, and my kids must joyuously attend without any complaint), I am supposed to have tons of kids without gaining any weight, fix delicious food without gaining any weight, be loving and forgiving all the time, be wealthy (since God blesses us when we pay our tithing, or when we are the truly righteous). I am supposed to attend meetings during the week, make sure all my children get their Eagle Scout, make sure they all have perfect grades, go on a date once a week with my spouse, yet I should be with my children all the time. I shouldn't work outside the home, but since I do I am made to feel guilty and am still expected to meet the same standards of perfections as a woman who stays home all day. I need to attend the temple, do my geneaology, visit the sick, serve others in the ward, bring in dinners to those who are ill, serve in my community, dress nicely but not immodestly, exercise, help my children with their homework, have plenty of energy at the end of the day to have sex with my husband, look beautiful every day (and no aging -- please!). I must sing, play the piano, play the violin, afford lessons for my children to do these things, attend all the soccer and basketball games for each of my children, perhaps volunteer to help with them, bring treats, join the PTA, volunteer in my child's classroom.... and on, and on, and on. I need to do my visiting teaching every month and bring a small gift or handout. I must scrapbook every moment of each child's life. I must pay an honest tithe on the gross, even if I can't afford it, plus the fast offerings, and the missionary fund, and the perpetual education fund, etc. I need to quilt, cross-stitch, sew clothes, and make crafts. I must...
Except for the examples that are not bolded, what we have left doesn't sound at all like the Church, but like the contents of the articles one sees in the pop liberal woman's magazines in every check out counter rack in every supermarket in the nation.
"I can bring home the bacon... Fry it up in a pan... And never ever let you forget you're a man, 'Cause I'm a WOMAN...with Enjoli."
Half of what you've described here has no noticeable connection to the Church and its teachings, or its culture as people actually live it, in my 50 years of experience. What you've described here is the gospel of Helen Gurley Brown, not the church. This is the Church of Cosmo.
I don't know where you get this stuff; perhaps from your own unique experience, but its certainly not the experience of most Mormon woman, at least none that I've known, only a few of which have been able to keep knockout looks, as defined by Madison Avenue, into middle age. Nor are many men the hunks they were at BYU. Beautiful all the time? Sex every night? Great meals every day? Soccer every day? No aging, no weight gain? This is the having-it-all world of seventies feminism, not any reality I've ever seen in the Church. There are some couples who have the money and energy to do a great deal, but most are just normal people working through life with all their physical, emotional, and financial limitations inherent in mortality. The Church supports that. We are to be working toward perfection, it is true, but mortality is for the working, not for the attaining, of such a condition.
The face of sin today often wears the mask of tolerance.
3. Did you attend Young Women's meetings growing up every week?
4. How could you understand the Mormon woman's experience, never having been one?
5. It is not always spoken, but implied.
6. I have actually sat through Relief Society lessons where women were denounced for working outside the home.
7. Some of it is cultural, rather than doctrinal - but it is still there.
8. I grew up in Salt Lake City - the heart of Mormonism. It is not just me.
9. I have talked to many peers - Mormon women who feel these pressures.
10. "Be ye therefore perfect...."
ktall
"Brigham said the day would come when thousands would be made Eunuchs in order for them to be saved in the kingdom of God." (Wilford Woodruff's Diary, June 2, 1857, Vol. 5, pages 54-55)
"Coggins7 As I looked over this again, I realized that it was nothing but the spleen venting of an adolescent mentality looking for a shoulder to cry on because something's wrong inside and the Church is an easy scapegoat that allows displacement of anger and frustration onto an external and relives one of the need to do serious work on one's own life.
Sorry to have misunderstood.
About 90% of the above is raw, unvarnished nonsense, but don't let that stop a good Church bashing session.
Nice ad hominem attack. You're a fine one to talk about "adolescent mentality."
Look - you don't know me personally and are therefore unqualified to make judgments about what's "wrong inside" with me.
These are simply my experiences and perceptions about Mormon society and why so many women are depressed and on antidepressant drugs - which is the topic of this thread. I have attended a lifetime's worth of Relief Society and other church meetings in the heart of the Salt Lake Valley. This subject (of depression, guilt, and expectations of perfectionism) has even been discussed in Sunday Relief Society meetings among the sisters I know, who concurred that these were their experiences - and their perceptions of the expectations that are placed on them. Obviously I can't speak for every woman in the church, only the ones I come into contact with.
ktall
"Brigham said the day would come when thousands would be made Eunuchs in order for them to be saved in the kingdom of God." (Wilford Woodruff's Diary, June 2, 1857, Vol. 5, pages 54-55)