Do you dispute the following?
No, I am not saying that Hitler, who was raised a Christian from birth,
never in his life indicated that he was in fact a Christian. I doubt he would have made it through school without some kind of proclamation of faith. I acknolwedge that he, later on
as a politician, used his technical status as Christian for political gain. The Church held enormous political power, and he wasn't in any position to provoke it. The speech you're referencing was given in 1922, a decade before he started gaining any true political power. But once he had it, he was in a position to come clean about his true beliefs, even though he did so behind closed doors. He even referred to Christianity as the "wrong religion." How many real adherents of any religion claim their religion is the
wrong religion?
The nonsense by JAK has been refuted many times in the past. Since we're only interested in web links, you should at least peruse those from both perspectives. This one is fairly decent in refuting the stuff thrown about here:
http://coulternation.blogtownhall.com/2 ... ian!.thtmlInstead of citing a link and leaving it at that, I'll highlight the portions that pertain to this discussion.
According to Joseph Goebbels, who was one of Hitler's closest friends at the time, wrote in his journal entry, "The Führer is deeply religious, but deeply anti-Christian." Now why would anyone make that up in their diary?
According to another close associate, Albert Speer quoted Hitler as saying, "Why didn’t we have the religion of the Japanese, who regard sacrifice for the Fatherland as the highest good? The Mohammedan religion too would have been much more compatible to us than Christianity. Why did it have to be Christianity with its meekness and flabbiness?"
JAK is trying to suggest that Hitler's violence was a result of his influence from Christianity, but the history tells a different story. Hitler hated Christianity as it was and then tried to reinvent his own version he called "positive Christianity." The Christianity that existed didn't serve his agenda but he couldn't just introduce Islam or Japanese religion to Germany. He was working with the political tools he had, and all he had religiously to work with was Catholicism. So in public he spoke favorably while his intimate conversations he chastized it. That's politics. Historians understand this, and so do I. JAK doesn't.
According to the historian Alan Bullock, Hitler learned from his earlier mistakes in criticizing the Catholic Church because it weakened his power because it was a turn off for so many. In the book,
Hitler's Table Talk, many private conversations were published. These conversations took place between 1941 and 1944. Check out some of the things Hitler said:
"National Socialism and religion cannot exist together.... The heaviest blow that ever struck humanity was the coming of Christianity. Bolshevism is Christianity's illegitimate child. Both are inventions of the Jew. The deliberate lie in the matter of religion was introduced into the world by Christianity.... Let it not be said that Christianity brought man the life of the soul, for that evolution was in the natural order of things.” (p. 6-7)
“The best thing is to let Christianity die a natural death.... When understanding of the universe has become widespread... Christian doctrine will be convicted of absurdity.... Christianity has reached the peak of absurdity.... And that's why someday its structure will collapse.... ...the only way to get rid of Christianity is to allow it to die little by little.... Christianity the liar.... We'll see to it that the Churches cannot spread abroad teachings in conflict with the interests of the State.” (p. 49-52)
“Christianity is an invention of sick brains: one could imagine nothing more senseless, nor any more indecent way of turning the idea of the Godhead into a mockery.... .... When all is said, we have no reason to wish that the Italians and Spaniards should free themselves from the drug of Christianity. Let's be the only people who are immunised against the disease.” (p. 118-119)
It becomes apparently clear that Hitler, even if he was a Christian in his earlier years, was never a Christian in his later years.
And these are the years that matter. The years when he went insane and started slaughtering Jews. He called Christianity and invention of the Jews, so it boggles the mind to suggest he based his anti-semitisim on his Christian beliefs. That last comment, "Let's be the only people who are immunised against the disease," is just another way of saying what Dawkins is trying to say today.
JAK is doing no such thing, dart. He is using weblinks that are accessible and verifiable to users on an online message board. Nowhere on this thread has JAK made the claim that Hitler was a "real Christian". He stated that it was Hitler's claim and provided a list of links that support that assertion. Once more for good measure: The assertion is that Hitler claimed to be Christian.
When? Under what circumstance? What else did Hitler say to contradict this statement? JAK doesn't provide because it all undermines his thesis.
Once again...the assertion is that Hitler claimed to be Christian Try keeping your eye on the intellectual ball, dart.
Unless he claimed to be Christian
during his heinous acts, the point is irrelevant since history already shows that Hitler considered himself anything but a Christian during these times. Again, JAK's whole point is that Hitler was a murderous madman, and a Christian. The effort to make a connection here is hardly a subtle point, since this has been his theme song for weeks now. But only someone completely ignorant of history would keep beating this drum.
Your accusations of lying are disproved by the Hitler quote I supplied above.
Fine, so technically he didn't lie because at
some point in Hitler's life, when he was an ambitious politician seeking power, he did say he was a Christian for political reasons. However, this point is irrelevant to JAK's thesis, which tries to show some kind of connection between Hitler's "Christianity" and his murderous regime. I mean that is the whole point isn't it? "Religion is dangerous" and all that jazz.
Watch the ball again, dart...it doesn't matter if Hitler hated Christianity.
Of course it does. Unless JAK can show how Christainity influenced his terrorism, his entire argument is shot to hell. Many LDS are technically members of the Church, but they absolutely hate the Church. Does that make them Mormons in any sense that matters? Technically they are Mormon, but you cannot use their "Mormonism" as an explanation for their actions, anymore than you can attribute to Hitler, Christian terrorism. Many Mormons stay on the rolls for social reasons the same as Hitler used the Church for political reasons. This is hardly a new concept.
It doesn't matter if Hitler was a "real Christian" or not.
In the context of JAK's agenda, it most certainly does. For if he concedes the point that Hitler wasn't really a Christian during his atrocities, it deflates his silly "all religion is dangerous" argument.
The assertion (watch the ball, dart) is that Hitler claimed to be Christian and this is evidenced in the quote I supplied above from his speech on April 12, 1922. The words of Hitler prove the assertion that JAK made is true.
You're insulting everyone's intelligence here. If someone started a rumor about how I believed Joseph Smith was a true prophet of God, people here would naturally doubt it. They know me well enough to know I do not believe that. Yet, I'm sure, somewhere online over the years I stated such a thing. If a mopologist threw up a citation of something I once said on FAIR, he would technically be correct. However, he would still be wrong to suggest I am a Mormon. Hitler's atrocities took place after he spat in the face of Christianity. He said religion and socialism couldn't exist together. That's pretty clear.
JAK is simply regurgitating atheist arguments without researching tehri claims for verification. I mean even if your research is limited to the web, there are plenty of contrary viewpoints one should investigate before claiming to be educated.
“All knowledge of reality starts from experience and ends in it...Propositions arrived at by purely logical means are completely empty as regards reality." - Albert Einstein