Why the church should open its archives (not what you think)

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_beastie
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Post by _beastie »

Paraphrasing Frank Kermode, for the "true believer" there can be no such thing as "disconfirming evidence", simply because his "true belief" was never based on evidence in the first place. Mormon belief, like all fanatical, false beliefs, only maintains a veneer of rational justification; underneath, it is virtually content-free. It is, in fact, merely a psychological state, distinguishable only by the particular totems it anchors itself with (the Book of Mormon itself, a man-as-true-prophet itself, etc.).


Yes, yes, yes.

When I first left the church I was unfamiliar with the world of apologia. This was before I was online, and, living in the ‘mission field’, I had access to very little material. When I accidentally discovered the “other” church history, it immediately caused me to re-evaluate my faith. The more I learned, the more my faith eroded. I fought that erosion tooth and nail, but it was inevitable.

I was quite naïve at that time and imagined that any Mormon who learned about this “other” history would naturally lose belief. In fact, I became interested in online apologia due to the fact that its existence was startling to me, because this meant that large numbers of LDS knew this “other” history and yet still found a way to believe! I found that amazing and interesting, and began conversations with them to try and figure out how, and why, they were able to continue believing.

My first reaction, upon reading how these apologists were willing to alter what I had always viewed as basic LDS teachings, was that they were really heretics, in a way. One sneeze away from apostasy themselves. Yet, as time went on, it became apparent that many were quite firm in this version of LDS faith.

After many conversations, especially with the “post-modern” apologists, I gradually came to view these apologists as the “real” True Believers. Not the folks sitting in the chapel, firm in their testimonies, yet oblivious to these matters. And even more – they were the ones who really were following the tradition of Joseph Smith. Joseph Smith didn’t really care about content, either, did he? He was willing to change any teaching, no matter how fundamental (like the nature of god), without notice or fanfare. The content didn’t matter at all to Joseph Smith, so the apologists are the ones who are TRULY following his religion.

I had a lengthy conversation with Ben McGuire on the old ZLMB that, to me, finally and forcefully convinced me of this idea.

http://pacumenispages.yuku.com/topic/89 ... tml?page=1

In this thread, Ben admitted that ANY content in the church could change, and it would not alter the church’s “one true church” status – even if that change were to decide that the Jesus story was really a myth. Here’s one of his comments that I think confirms the truth of Tal’s statement:

But in the sense that a foundational belief is one that cannot be changed, NO SUCH THING EXISTS. But you want to find this - because I think that you don't really understand the philosophical perspective that I represent. There isn't anything partial about my adoption of the notion of the inaccessibility of absolute truth. Of course when I say this, you want me to also agree with the idea that this makes everyone else fundamentalist - including the LDS prophets, and I say no. I also continue to point out that if God represents absolute truth, then he can overturn anything that we believe, and as long as He confirms it to us, we, of necessity accept the new position as truth. But just because everything can be changed, doesn't make it likely in my view that it will be. This whole thing is about you attempting to define exactly what can or cannot be a core - or foundational belief. If you want to say that such a belief is one that cannot be changed, then in Mormonism, there is no basis for such a thing. There is no foundational beliefs, we have only the revealed will of God, filtered, interpreted, and so on. And this Trump's any tradition, any canon, everything.


(page 8 of the discussion, ben appears as “unregistered user” because the board switched to Yuku and unless people reregister under Yuku, their posts appear as “unregistered user”. It’s ruined the archives)

There are no foundational beliefs. There are no foundational beliefs. There are no foundational beliefs. Only what “God” reveals at the moment. Joseph Smith would have been totally on board with that.
We hate to seem like we don’t trust every nut with a story, but there’s evidence we can point to, and dance while shouting taunting phrases.

Penn & Teller

http://www.mormonmesoamerica.com
_Inconceivable
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Post by _Inconceivable »

I don't know Tal,

I don't think most members know much of what you mention. I thought I was kinda smart all these years. I thought I read a lot, but I was sheltered from nearly everything you listed (even my former stake president was unaware of most of that before I troubled him with it - he could not believe it, of course. And he's a pretty smart guy too).

(Re)opening the archives would be akin to the iron curtain falling. It would mean that those on the outside wouldn't be the only ones that saw it for what it was. Those on the inside would become painfully aware of the long forgotten words of the prophets and their feet of iron and clay. Some would jump for joy, some would jump out of buildings. Uncertainty does strange things to us.

There are many parallels worth musing over.

I think with the internet, it won't be long before the membership will take notice of this new exodus of sorts. We left and we're not particularly any sharper than the others.

One more thought. The only noteable increase in church membership are within 3rd world nations where the internet does not exist. And most of them still believe they are Lamanites.

I think the suits will continue to make feeble attempts to re-bottle the Genie.
_wenglund
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Post by _wenglund »

Inconceivable wrote: (Re)opening the archives would be akin to the iron curtain falling. It would mean that those on the outside wouldn't be the only ones that saw it for what it was. Those on the inside would become painfully aware of the long forgotten words of the prophets and their feet of iron and clay. Some would jump for joy, some would jump out of buildings. Uncertainty does strange things to us.


Aren't your catastrophic or extremist musing based on things you know absolutely nothing about (i.e. specifically what are the contents of the dreaded vault)?

If so, then that certainly explains your screen name. ;-)

Thanks, -Wade Englund-
_Tal Bachman
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Post by _Tal Bachman »

Maybe you're right, Inconceivable, but I think you might be overestimating the power of reason in situations like this.

As for Beastie's comments...it sounds like we've come to the same view of things. And in truth, I think that view is the only one that explains everything we observe from Mormon "believers".
_Trevor
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Post by _Trevor »

beastie wrote:After many conversations, especially with the “post-modern” apologists, I gradually came to view these apologists as the “real” True Believers. Not the folks sitting in the chapel, firm in their testimonies, yet oblivious to these matters. And even more – they were the ones who really were following the tradition of Joseph Smith. Joseph Smith didn’t really care about content, either, did he? He was willing to change any teaching, no matter how fundamental (like the nature of god), without notice or fanfare. The content didn’t matter at all to Joseph Smith, so the apologists are the ones who are TRULY following his religion.


Well said, beastie. And how true. Don Bradley once showed me a quote from a late 19th century critic of Mormonism who had essentially concluded the same thing. Joseph Smith was successful, this author opined, because he remained flexible out of a lack of any real conviction for what he was teaching. It did not matter what he was teaching from one moment to the next. It could all be edited. What mattered was the results. And for him I think it was about power and the adoration. Joseph got to be someone of real importance to a lot of people. Without the hat trick it would have never happened.
“I was hooked from the start,” Snoop Dogg said. “We talked about the purpose of life, played Mousetrap, and ate brownies. The kids thought it was off the hook, for real.”
_Inconceivable
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Post by _Inconceivable »

wenglund wrote:Aren't your catastrophic or extremist musing based on things you know absolutely nothing about (I.e. specifically what are the contents of the dreaded vault)?..


Portions of Joseph Smith diary that were removed from the one I read 10 years ago (edited by Faulring)... like you can qualify me. Challenging me to a wizards duel? No thanks.

Wade,

You and the other apologists are a religeon unto yourselves. I always considered you people outside of my Mormon religeon long before I started studying the real history. I was a chapel Mormon. Chapel Mormons don't even recognize your silent and confusing God.

If the doors open, the authentic TBM's will finally be apprised of what you peep and mutter about just because of the publicity. It really doesn't matter what's inside.

You are an anomaly. Most people that stumble outside at mid-day would attest that there is evidence of a large and radiant sun.

Wade, it's the bright shiny object above your small hat.
_Inconceivable
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Post by _Inconceivable »

Tal Bachman wrote:Maybe you're right, Inconceivable, but I think you might be overestimating the power of reason in situations like this.

As for Beastie's comments...it sounds like we've come to the same view of things. And in truth, I think that view is the only one that explains everything we observe from Mormon "believers".


Yeah. All things considered it's as if we're in a life boat musing over which way the ship will role over before it goes under.
_wenglund
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Post by _wenglund »

Inconceivable wrote:
wenglund wrote:Aren't your catastrophic or extremist musing based on things you know absolutely nothing about (I.e. specifically what are the contents of the dreaded vault)?..


Portions of Joseph Smith diary that were removed from the one I read 10 years ago (edited by Faulring)...


You mean that something excaped the dreaded vault that people outside the vault are actually now aware of, and this is the source of your catastrophic thinking?

How can this be?

The thought of an alleged leak such as this (and one that found its way into print) can dampen the whole notion of the vault being impregnible and hermetically sealed from the view of investigators and members alike. Right?

I mean, if a regular Joe like yourself is aware of what's in the dreaded vault, then essentially the vault contains no unknowable secrets (catastrophic or otherwise). The "genie", as it were, is already out of the bottle, and so the entire collapse of the LDS Church should have already happened or have been well under way. Right?

Quick, head for your bunker and hunker down, and await for the mushroom cloud of dust to settle. ;-)

Thanks, -Wade Englund-
_moksha
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Post by _moksha »

Tal Bachman wrote:The Godhead? Changed.

Baptism? Changed.

Marriage? Changed.

Blacks? Changed.

Who the Lamanites are? Changed.

Who can give blessings? Changed.

The "plan of salvation"? Changed.

Everything's already changed, Nehor. Why would one more change matter to you?

It wouldn't.


Here is an even trickier point: Everything in the Universe changes.
Cry Heaven and let loose the Penguins of Peace
_Boaz & Lidia
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Post by _Boaz & Lidia »

Tal Bachman wrote:
The Nehor wrote:
Such a statement may or may not 'officially change' doctrine but I'll walk if that comes over the pulpit too.


---Nehor, there is already one hundred and eighty years of endlessly changing "doctrine" which has been preached over "the pulpit" of the church you still pledge allegiance to. This makes your claim very dubious.

I invite you right now to give us just three "doctrines" which haven't been changed at some point throughout the course of Mormon history, or are currently being shifted or backed away from, by Mormon leaders. What are they?

The Godhead? Changed.

Baptism? Changed.

Marriage? Changed.

Blacks? Changed.

Who the Lamanites are? Changed.

Who can give blessings? Changed.

The "plan of salvation"? Changed.

Everything's already changed, Nehor. Why would one more change matter to you?

It wouldn't.
Temple ceremony? Changed.

The only thing that has not changed is Nehor's smelly diaper, cuz mommy isn't home yet.
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