Look what the backassyard professor is spewing on Youtube

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_Coggins7
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Post by _Coggins7 »

On the Alma thing. I probably read about this before, but simply forgot about it. Once you realize that the Book of Mormon simply is a 19th century document, there is little reason to keep tabs on every little dribble of evidence the apologists stack in the house of cards (fewer and thinner cards every year, it seems).

Now, on to your question. If it hasn't happened already, someone is bound to bring up the NHM thing, which Don Bradley effectively refuted long ago. The simple fact is that the evidence for the antiquity of the Book of Mormon is exceedingly poor. Most people, unmotivated by testimony, would hardly mistake it for anything other than a 19th century document that relies heavily on the Bible as source material.

I think the best that a Book of Mormon scholar can do is discuss how there are things in the Book of Mormon that suggest its antiquity, as in, "we wouldn't expect a 19th century forgery to exhibit these characteristics." The problem with this thinking is that it assumes a particular vision of what a forgery *must* look like, as a kind of strawman, and then proceeds to attack this version of the forgery. I would say that we might expect a 19th century forgery to contain lots of Bible quotations, a very simple and clear indicator of fraud, but then there is always some mental/rhetorical gymnastic to try to explain this obvious fact away.

As I said, I would bet that many of the things that Kerry brought up are also true of the Bible, and it is perfectly possible that this is where many of the "ancient characteristics" of the Book of Mormon are coming from--the Bible.



I would also guess that this entire thing is pure speculation and guesswork on your part, and you have, unlike Kerry, who has spent much of this adult life doing the actual scholarly study and research, no direct knowledge of that of which you speak. Don Bradly is just another brick in the secularist critic wall, and he's no danger to the Book of Mormon.

This is pretty thin Trevor, even for you.
The face of sin today often wears the mask of tolerance.


- Thomas S. Monson
_Trevor
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Post by _Trevor »

Coggins7 wrote:I would also guess that this entire thing is pure speculation and guesswork on your part, and you have, unlike Kerry, who has spent much of this adult life doing the actual scholarly study and research, no direct knowledge of that of which you speak. Don Bradly is just another brick in the secular critic wall, and he's no danger to the Book of Mormon.


True enough about Don being no danger to the Book of Mormon, Coggins7. Human gullibility is nigh impossible to stamp out.

As for Kerry, as I said, I like the guy. I think he is smart. He is also something of a gullible wingnut. Here is a guy who is steeped in the study of Tarot, Kabbalah, and Jebus knows what else. Pardon me if I am not awed by his BS meter. Here we have a man, lovable though he may be, who is eager to believe a whole load of horsepucky. It may be interesting horsepucky, but from what I have seen this guy actually pursues it for spiritual enlightenment. The Book of Mormon, it would seem, is the least of his problems, and it is a pretty big hoax in itself.

Mormonism seems to attract/produce these "backyard professors." I have known a few of them in my time. One thing they were not good at was distinguishing between what they wanted to be true and what was actually relevant. They tended to believe in nonsense that even you would reject out of hand, Coggins.
“I was hooked from the start,” Snoop Dogg said. “We talked about the purpose of life, played Mousetrap, and ate brownies. The kids thought it was off the hook, for real.”
_RockHeaded
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Post by _RockHeaded »

Jersey Girl wrote:
RockHeaded wrote:
Jersey Girl wrote:
RockHeaded wrote:
Jersey Girl wrote:
Coggins7 wrote:
Alma being a male semitic name for that time period has been known about for years.



Yes, it has, but don't expect most here to

1. Be so much as aware of the fact

2. Be aware of the relevant scholarship

3. Be intellectually honest enough to admit to it if they were.

I am, regarding this forum, of little faith...


Then you tell me, what the possible significance of this is when the entire Book of Mormon was fabricated out of whole cloth and writings borrowed from others including the Bible?

Is this the strongest case for Book of Mormon evidences? One name?


Really? What book did Joseph Smith copy the allegory of the olive tree from?


Joseph Smith didn't copy anything. What are you talking about? Please show me where I stated Joseph Smith had any hand at all in the Book of Mormon.

No really. Quote me.


Okay, so how did Joseph Smith know how to cultivate olive trees? (rofl) does that work for you? (borrowed?)


Joseph Smith had nothing to do with the production of the Book of Mormon.


Okay, so tell me WHO did? or did someone tell Joseph how to cultivate the olive trees? You need to explain to us how THAT got into this book, since of course you believe someone or something made it up. There has to be some reasoning somewhere?
"… Do you believe Jesus Christ and the gospel of salvation which he revealed? So do I. Christians should cease wrangling and contending with each other, and cultivate the principles of union and friendship. I am just as ready to die defending the rights of a Presbyterian, a Baptist, or a good man of any other denomination." Joseph Smith jr. Sermon, 1843
_Trevor
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Post by _Trevor »

RockHeaded wrote:Okay, so tell me WHO did? or did someone tell Joseph how to cultivate the olive trees? You need to explain to us how THAT got into this book, since of course you believe someone or something made it up. There has to be some reasoning somewhere?


Lord Xenu. He knows it all.
“I was hooked from the start,” Snoop Dogg said. “We talked about the purpose of life, played Mousetrap, and ate brownies. The kids thought it was off the hook, for real.”
_RockHeaded
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Post by _RockHeaded »

Trevor wrote:
RockHeaded wrote:Okay, so tell me WHO did? or did someone tell Joseph how to cultivate the olive trees? You need to explain to us how THAT got into this book, since of course you believe someone or something made it up. There has to be some reasoning somewhere?


Lord Xenu. He knows it all.


For some reason I thought I'd get a scholarly explanation.
"… Do you believe Jesus Christ and the gospel of salvation which he revealed? So do I. Christians should cease wrangling and contending with each other, and cultivate the principles of union and friendship. I am just as ready to die defending the rights of a Presbyterian, a Baptist, or a good man of any other denomination." Joseph Smith jr. Sermon, 1843
_Trevor
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Post by _Trevor »

RockHeaded wrote:For some reason I thought I'd get a scholarly explanation.


Now what fun would that be?

But seriously, it is not the job of the nonbeliever to come up with an explanation of everything that appears in the Book of Mormon. One of the bread and butter tactics of the Mormon apologist is to construct a vision of the Book of Mormon and Joseph Smith that appears to be miraculous. "How could he...?"; "A forgery wouldn't..."; "It would be impossible..." Then he/she demands that critics explain how it is that something appearing to be as miraculous as Mormons make it out to be could possibly be a fraud.

I have a different approach, one that is not predicated on the notion that it is my job to convince you that the Book of Mormon is a fraud. It is simply this: tell me why on earth I should consider this book to be an artifact of an ancient civilization in the Americas.

Once you turn the argument around in this direction, the one that does not assume the result you take for granted as a believer, then the whole thing looks frankly absurd. And, it has been the job of apologists in recent years to construct a vision of the Book of Mormon that somehow returns it to the realm of faint plausibility that it lost some time ago. What they have come up with is a version of Book of Mormon apologia that completely removes things like DNA and Book of Mormon geography from the realm of the testable.

In one of my long battles with Brant Gardner, who is the past master of cog diss management (imagine what he could achieve if he put his mind to something worthwhile!), he essentially said that I should not expect to find any evidence of ancient Nephites in the New World. I ask you, how on earth do you argue with that?
“I was hooked from the start,” Snoop Dogg said. “We talked about the purpose of life, played Mousetrap, and ate brownies. The kids thought it was off the hook, for real.”
_RockHeaded
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Post by _RockHeaded »

Trevor wrote:
RockHeaded wrote:For some reason I thought I'd get a scholarly explanation.


Now what fun would that be?

But seriously, it is not the job of the nonbeliever to come up with an explanation of everything that appears in the Book of Mormon. One of the bread and butter tactics of the Mormon apologist is to construct a vision of the Book of Mormon and Joseph Smith that appears to be miraculous. "How could he...?"; "A forgery wouldn't..."; "It would be impossible..." Then he/she demands that critics explain how it is that something appearing to be as miraculous as Mormons make it out to be could possibly be a fraud.

I have a different approach, one that is not predicated on the notion that it is my job to convince you that the Book of Mormon is a fraud. It is simply this: tell me why on earth I should consider this book to be an artifact of an ancient civilization in the Americas.

Once you turn the argument around in this direction, the one that does not assume the result you take for granted as a believer, then the whole thing looks frankly absurd. And, it has been the job of apologists in recent years to construct a vision of the Book of Mormon that somehow returns it to the realm of faint plausibility that it lost some time ago. What they have come up with is a version of Book of Mormon apologia that completely removes things like DNA and Book of Mormon geography from the realm of the testable.

In one of my long battles with Brant Gardner, who is the past master of cog diss management (imagine what he could achieve if he put his mind to something worthwhile!), he essentially said that I should not expect to find any evidence of ancient Nephites in the New World. I ask you, how on earth do you argue with that?



So basically you are saying that one can make a claim, as in claiming someone borrowed information (or something like that) but they do not have to show where or how they've come to that conclusion?
"… Do you believe Jesus Christ and the gospel of salvation which he revealed? So do I. Christians should cease wrangling and contending with each other, and cultivate the principles of union and friendship. I am just as ready to die defending the rights of a Presbyterian, a Baptist, or a good man of any other denomination." Joseph Smith jr. Sermon, 1843
_Dr. Shades
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Post by _Dr. Shades »

RockHeaded wrote:Okay, so tell me WHO did? or did someone tell Joseph how to cultivate the olive trees? You need to explain to us how THAT got into this book, since of course you believe someone or something made it up. There has to be some reasoning somewhere?


Solomon Spalding wrote the Book of Mormon. Read this book for all the reasoning.
"Finally, for your rather strange idea that miracles are somehow linked to the amount of gay sexual gratification that is taking place would require that primitive Christianity was launched by gay sex, would it not?"

--Louis Midgley
_Trevor
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Post by _Trevor »

RockHeaded wrote:So basically you are saying that one can make a claim, as in claiming someone borrowed information (or something like that) but they do not have to show where or how they've come to that conclusion?


I am sorry. When did I write that?

I presented a position about the Book of Mormon borrowing from the Bible. I did not present any information about olive trees.

I also explained that I do not think it is the nonbeliever's job to explain why it is members find the Book of Mormon so miraculous. I am waiting for someone to point out to me why I should consider the Book of Mormon ancient. Until I have good reason to believe it to be ancient, I am not interested in explaining why every last detail is as you imagine it to be. I can't spar with your spiritual perceptions. That is a pointless exercise.
“I was hooked from the start,” Snoop Dogg said. “We talked about the purpose of life, played Mousetrap, and ate brownies. The kids thought it was off the hook, for real.”
_RockHeaded
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Post by _RockHeaded »

Dr. Shades wrote:
RockHeaded wrote:Okay, so tell me WHO did? or did someone tell Joseph how to cultivate the olive trees? You need to explain to us how THAT got into this book, since of course you believe someone or something made it up. There has to be some reasoning somewhere?


Solomon Spalding wrote the Book of Mormon. Read this book for all the reasoning.


Shades, I will read the book. In fact, I will try and ignore my bias while reading it. But, after reading reviews of the book I have to wonder about the motives the writers had when writing the book? They say it is about history, not religion. Yet, the book is dedicated to Walter Martin (Bible answer man) whom was a hateful nasty person. I've listened to him on the radio and IMHO he wasn't a Christian. People that are Christians do not treat people like he treated Mormon people, well when they are trying to help them out of a 'cult', right?

I found this interesting as well;
In their "Afterward" (pp.367- 368) the authors present a masterful attempt to anticipate their critics: "Although the authors have made every effort to present the material in this volume as accurately and completely as possible, it is inevitable in a work of this size that some errors will occur. It is also inevitable that these will be eagerly sought out by critics and offered to the public as proof that the entire work is flawed. No doubt the motives of the authors themselves will also be questioned, based upon the ancient practice of taking the messengers to task when one is unable to digest the message itself. Whichever the case, the reader is urged to consider critical comments about this volume and its authors in a skeptical light and, always taking their source and the motivation behind them into account, to weigh them carefully against the evidence presented herein.




RockHeaded
"… Do you believe Jesus Christ and the gospel of salvation which he revealed? So do I. Christians should cease wrangling and contending with each other, and cultivate the principles of union and friendship. I am just as ready to die defending the rights of a Presbyterian, a Baptist, or a good man of any other denomination." Joseph Smith jr. Sermon, 1843
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